Does anyone have a picture of the Russian KhF 1 Chemical Mine?
Thanks
Pete
Thanks
Pete
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Russian KhF 1 Chemical Mine
- Thread starter peteblight
- Start date
You can see this "Russian" mine only in american books! Nobody in Russia don`t tell You that KhF 1 Russian mine.We don`t know this mine!!!!!!!!!! :bigsmile:
V40
Well-Known Member
Pete, the original diagram you are using now came out of a 1950s US document on foreign mine warfare equipment. As I recall, however, it was backed up by some data done by the German in WWII that was responsible for tracking/investigation of WWII Soviet chemical weapons (Hirsch). If I remember correctly the Hirsch report (done in the US in the late 40s) did not contain any photos or diagrams, only descriptions. What you have is the best we were able to do with an item described in more than one ref.
Jeff,
I've been going through every entry and if possible getting an improved picture, some of the pictures from Wilfred appear to have been before the digital age. I've been to the different sites and managed to get some better shots.
Also if we only have a diagram i've been looking for a picture (Without much luck) ;-)
Just waiting on a few people to give the go ahead to use some pictures.
Pete
I've been going through every entry and if possible getting an improved picture, some of the pictures from Wilfred appear to have been before the digital age. I've been to the different sites and managed to get some better shots.
Also if we only have a diagram i've been looking for a picture (Without much luck) ;-)
Just waiting on a few people to give the go ahead to use some pictures.
Pete
stecol
Well-Known Member
Ivashin may be right in part, opposite of citations by wartime German handbooks and postwar American ones (often based on German manuals), there is no feedback in contemporary russian manuals nor on landmine warfare nor those on chemical warfare.
Among other things, images of KhF-1 and KhF-2 that we see often show an extremely similar to the German mine "10l Sprh Bchse 37 ".
Could be that german intelligence supposed the existence of such weapons and assigned them shape and characteristics similar to what Germany had in the arsenal ?
Anyway, chemical landmines have always been subject to strictly secret: for example I am aware of the existence of italian chemical landmines, I know that were laid on the beaches of some Dodecanese islands in 1941-42 as anti-commando deterrent, but 70 years later I could not find any technical detail and even less I have not found an image (if someone knows something .... ).
This doesn't mean that the Russians had no chemical mines during WWII: they could have developed such weapons even before the war, but it is not said they have called KhF or have the shape and characteristics that are assigned them by german or american manuals.
Here are some pictures ascribed to KhF-1 (1-2) and KhF-2 (3-4), in my opinion of little reliability.
Regards
stecol
Among other things, images of KhF-1 and KhF-2 that we see often show an extremely similar to the German mine "10l Sprh Bchse 37 ".
Could be that german intelligence supposed the existence of such weapons and assigned them shape and characteristics similar to what Germany had in the arsenal ?
Anyway, chemical landmines have always been subject to strictly secret: for example I am aware of the existence of italian chemical landmines, I know that were laid on the beaches of some Dodecanese islands in 1941-42 as anti-commando deterrent, but 70 years later I could not find any technical detail and even less I have not found an image (if someone knows something .... ).
This doesn't mean that the Russians had no chemical mines during WWII: they could have developed such weapons even before the war, but it is not said they have called KhF or have the shape and characteristics that are assigned them by german or american manuals.
Here are some pictures ascribed to KhF-1 (1-2) and KhF-2 (3-4), in my opinion of little reliability.
Regards
stecol
Attachments
I'm not so sure of the lack of reliability. These documents were produced shortly after the war, as stecol says, based largely on German information. The Germans captured significant amounts of Soviet CW, the US found much of it in the Vilsek/Grafenwohr area when they puched east.
After the reunification of Germany we have been able to gather a number of photos of Soviet CW items only previously appearing in diagrams, 8kg bombs, 25kg bombs, etc. All of these have so far been an accurate match to the historic references. I would offer that this lends itself more towards credibility than doubt.
One last note - this type of mine (contamination device) was very common for use with mustard. While differing somewhat in shape, similar devices were designed/built/stockpiled in various degrees by the US, the UK, Poland and Germany (I think Hungary as well, but I'm away from my references). Poland's design was also very similar to the German weapon. With an active program and numerous weapon designs, it would seem reasonable that the Soviets had a like weapon. The Germans were very meticulous in their documentaion; I'd give the Hirsche report high reliability for design description and nomenclature.
After the reunification of Germany we have been able to gather a number of photos of Soviet CW items only previously appearing in diagrams, 8kg bombs, 25kg bombs, etc. All of these have so far been an accurate match to the historic references. I would offer that this lends itself more towards credibility than doubt.
One last note - this type of mine (contamination device) was very common for use with mustard. While differing somewhat in shape, similar devices were designed/built/stockpiled in various degrees by the US, the UK, Poland and Germany (I think Hungary as well, but I'm away from my references). Poland's design was also very similar to the German weapon. With an active program and numerous weapon designs, it would seem reasonable that the Soviets had a like weapon. The Germans were very meticulous in their documentaion; I'd give the Hirsche report high reliability for design description and nomenclature.
stecol
Well-Known Member
In my opinion one of the things which proves the real existence of an items, is the photographic evidence and/or the citation in original (national) manuals. When there isn't one of this type of evidence it is hardly to say that a device exists.
Surely the USSR made something in the field of chemical landmines since 1928, see the Fedorov's report (http://www.jmedcbr.org/issue_0701/Fedorov/Fedorov_08_09.html), but where are the results of this activity ?
The only surely known soviet landmine linked to chemical warfare is the IGS-50, a pratice item.
Of course, anyone can to provide sources, images, or any kind of information on Soviet chemical landmine is welcome.
If You need info about hungarian items:
http://militiahungarorum.extra.hu/1920_f_k_ga_g_e.html
http://militiahungarorum.extra.hu/1920_f_k_ga_g_i.html
http://militiahungarorum.extra.hu/1920_f_k_ga_g_8.html
Regards
stecol
P.S.: What's about polish chemical landmines ?
Surely the USSR made something in the field of chemical landmines since 1928, see the Fedorov's report (http://www.jmedcbr.org/issue_0701/Fedorov/Fedorov_08_09.html), but where are the results of this activity ?
The only surely known soviet landmine linked to chemical warfare is the IGS-50, a pratice item.
Of course, anyone can to provide sources, images, or any kind of information on Soviet chemical landmine is welcome.
If You need info about hungarian items:
http://militiahungarorum.extra.hu/1920_f_k_ga_g_e.html
http://militiahungarorum.extra.hu/1920_f_k_ga_g_i.html
http://militiahungarorum.extra.hu/1920_f_k_ga_g_8.html
Regards
stecol
P.S.: What's about polish chemical landmines ?
The Polish chemical mine was the WP-MP 1938, a mustard filled area denial device designed to be placed and then detonated.
It had a carrying handle and filler plug on the top and a burster standing about 150mm from the base.
Approximately 290mm high and 210mm in diameter.
Pete
It had a carrying handle and filler plug on the top and a burster standing about 150mm from the base.
Approximately 290mm high and 210mm in diameter.
Pete
stecol
Well-Known Member
Pictures of what model of mine US-Subs ?
KhF or WP-MP 1938 ?
In both cases, please post them, I would be very grateful !
Regards
stecol
The Polish version. It's development was halted was halted in the late thirties for some reason or another, but it was rumoured to have been the only CW used in W. Europe in WWII. There were accusations of use of mustard when the Germans first invaded Poland, if I recall correctly it was referred to as the Jaslow Bridge incident. The Germans used it as a propaganda point, claiming that Poland was provided mustard by the British, which they strongly denied. To this day there seems to be a lot of debate, I heard some Poles state that the entire incident was German propaganda, others that Poland was up against the wall, and justified in using whatever they had to defend themselves.
Two versions of the mine were built, the CW and an incendiary variant. As far as I know only two remain, a cutaway of the CW and a still full incendiary (at least 10 years ago it was still there). Both were located at their birthplace, the Polish NBC center, someplace near Warsaw - I never learned my way around so don't remember the exact location.
I took photos of both for the OCW handbook, I can try to look up some pictures this weekend.
Two versions of the mine were built, the CW and an incendiary variant. As far as I know only two remain, a cutaway of the CW and a still full incendiary (at least 10 years ago it was still there). Both were located at their birthplace, the Polish NBC center, someplace near Warsaw - I never learned my way around so don't remember the exact location.
I took photos of both for the OCW handbook, I can try to look up some pictures this weekend.
Stecol, if you are a professional (EOD) working in the military you can request the OCW handbook (http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/57698-Looking-for-photos?highlight=pre-1946), which can provide you with more info as well. Peteblight should be up on the current request procedures for authorized agencies.
I hope he has got a new one for me to 
stecol
Well-Known Member
:tinysmile_twink_t2:
The list is getting longer ;-)