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Somme relics May 2012

AMMOTECHXT

AMMOTECHXT

Well-Known Member
Ordnance approved
Premium Member
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We had a holiday in Northern France earlier this month, near Guise, East of St Quentin, in an area that was fought over in late 1918, although there was little sign of it. The photos re Premont cemetery concern the grave of one of my great uncles, Lewis James Williams, who was married to a sister of my maternal grandmother. From the little I have found out about him he may already have been a soldier at the start of WW1. He died of pneumonia, possibly as a result of the flu epidemic of 1918, six days short of the end of the war. His wife received the dreaded telegram on Armistice Day. The middle initial is incorrect. This may have something to do with the way the French pronounce the letters G and J, which is opposite to how British and American people pronounce them.
The photos of ammo were taken in the 1916 battle area, where there is still much more evidence of the fighting that happened there. The fuze of one of the shells had apparently fresh damage, indicating it may have been hit by a farming implement - you can see why these could still be a hazard for farmers. Foot and rucsac for indication of size. I found another shell that I didn't photograph - the lower and major part of the fuze seemed to be corroded aluminium. The first three photos are all of the same shell. The fuze appears to be a No 102, dated 8/16 - apologies for the blurred images - I preferred a manual focus camera. The disc in the ground is the base end of a shell that is now part of a farm track - the driving band was still attached. Photos 4 and 17 are of the same shell. Photo 3 also shows a Stokes mortar bomb.
 
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What I'm always wondering about is that almost all shells are missing the drive bands. Where they removed by civilians collecting brass, or has somebody a better idea?
 
Hey Kees,

You are probably right for the majority of cases, post WW1 many shells were "relieved" of their drivingbelts by brass collectors who'd sell the gathered material in order to get some extra income. The non cupro remains simply being left behind for posterity to deal with.


greetz,

Menno.
 
Menno,

i think so. Ever tried to remove a driving band, i did once. it asks for a lot af hammering and violance. This had to be a hazardous job then.
 
I must admit I did not carefully examine the area of the driving bands to see whether they had been chiseled off. Certainly the driving bands of any shells found inland, even from WW1, are still likely to be firmly attached. As a child in the 1960s we went on holiday to my favourite beach, a range in the UK, and found dozens of stripped driving bands from anti-tank shell. More recent finds indicate that the shell were fired from guns with worn barrels and the remains of the driving bands were quite thin, so I guess that for those sufficiently thinned in the barrel, they were flung off by centrifugal force when the shell left the barrel of the gun. Those were 2 Pr and 6 Pr solid shot. The 25 Pr solids that I find still have nicely engraved driving bands.
 
Have seen many of these shells in the Somme area for several decades now. Crusing the area I noticed that shells lying
next to the road with driving bands still in place in the morning had their driving bands removed in the afternoon. You can
see in the picture that a recently removed driving band leaves a different mark indicating recent removal. What I have seen
over the years is that the driving bands were always removal by using a hammer and chisel leaving a deep mark on the shell
thus indicating a heavily applied force.


Regards, Jan
http://www.westernfront.nl
 
"Forum eerste wereldoorlog" supplies a chapter dedicated to the DOVO, the Belgian forces EOD unit (army, navy), they regularly mention having to clean up unexploded ordnance by using heavy brushes and even hammer and chisel in order to be able to make a proper ID!
Although this, they say, may seem, to say the least, quite awkward, it is common DOVO practice.
This goes to show that (at least some) unexploded ordnance may be able to withstand a bit of a rough treatment as long as this is applied in the right places,
THE MAJOR CATCH OF COURSE BEING THAT DOVO PEOPLE ARE TRAINED PRO's WHO AT LEAST HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE OF THE MATERIAL THEY ARE HANDLING SO THEY KNOW WHERE AND WHERE NOT TO APPLY FORCE, the rest of us mortals would merely be testing how lucky we are...............

regards,

Menno.
 
Problem in this is that nobody can tell you where not to hit it. the laws of math prevent this. once it is hit on the wrong spot, the man involved cant tell you where it was.
still curious how often this went wrong in the early days.
 
still curious how often this went wrong in the early days.
Click to expand...

Apparently not often enough to frighten people not to do this because it is still one to this day. Once saw this old man on a moped with two panniers at the back going crisscross the various
country lanes in Northern France and every time he was in the neighbourhood I discovered these shells with the driving band recently removed. Makes you wonder how many times he has
done this kind of business and how much luck he must have had. No garantee and one day his luck might run out.

Regards, Jan
http://www.westernfront.nl
 
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Thank you for posting the link pzgr40/42 the graphic images show some of the nicest outcomes of what can happen without been killed when you mess with stuff .
 
Of course the safety aspect depends on whether the shells have actually been fired or not. Unfired shells have the bore safety element of the fuse to ensure they are safe. They must have actually spun up the barrel to arm the fuse. Fired ones are a different matter and the armed fuse may be hanging by a thread waiting for a tap to release it. Nasty stuff. I once saw an old guy in Pozieres chiselling the bands from fired 60pr HE shells....I gave him a VERY wide berth.
 
Hello Flak 18

very correct, but unfortunately being fired (bore safeties) or not is NOT the only safety aspect that needs to be taken in to account.

Several high explosive substances are subject to chemical deterioration/alteration over time, which can lead to radically different "behaviour" of these substances (e.g. Picric acid may be subject to cristalizing, rendering it rather unstable!).

Also the cicumstances to which such a substance is subjected (was it burried in sand or clay, was it in water, iff so saline water or normal water etc., was it exposed to oxygen.....) can influence the way and amount of deterioration/alteration of given substance, all of which might cause the substance to react differently compared to it's normal characteristics.

regards,

Menno.
 
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flak18 said:
Of course the safety aspect depends on whether the shells have actually been fired or not. Unfired shells have the bore safety element of the fuse to ensure they are safe. They must have actually spun up the barrel to arm the fuse. Fired ones are a different matter and the armed fuse may be hanging by a thread waiting for a tap to release it. Nasty stuff. I once saw an old guy in Pozieres chiselling the bands from fired 60pr HE shells....I gave him a VERY wide berth.
Click to expand...

pzgr40/42 said:
Hello Flak 18
very correct, but unfortunately being fired (bore safeties) or not is NOT the only safety aspect that needs to be taken in to account.
Several high explosive substances are subject to chemical deterioration/alteration over time, which can lead to radically different "behaviour" of these substances (e.g. Picric acid may be subject to cristalizing, rendering it rather unstable!).

Also the cicumstances to which such a substance is subjected (was it burried in sand or clay, was it in water, iff so saline water or normal water etc., was it exposed to oxygen.....) can influence the way and amount of deterioration/alteration of given substance, all of which might cause the substance to react differently compared to it's normal characteristics.
regards,
Menno.
Click to expand...

Hello flak18 , pzgr40/42

True , but the most important is the safety mecanism . An unfired shell may be so sensible as a fired one , depending on the typ of internal security (centrifugal, block of black pownder, spring with balls, simple spring, without security ... etc ...)

For example, with the years and humidity, a minenwerfer fuze on an unfired minenwefer shell is so dangerous as a uxo_fired minenwefer shell.
A german centrifugal fuze on a fired shell (marine or puw) is potentially not so dangerous and may be handled.

etc .....

best regards
 
thekees said:
What I'm always wondering about is that almost all shells are missing the drive bands. Where they removed by civilians collecting brass, or has somebody a better idea?
Click to expand...

I recall staying on a campsite that we used regularly on the Somme several years ago at Sapignies. It was a particularly hot afternoon and we were sat in the shade of the trees at the edge of the campsite which is in a small wood, overlooking the fields watching a lone old tractor ploughing about 150 yards away – every so often the farmer would stop get off the tractor and go to the plough and pick up an object. He then took some tools from a small pack hung over the back of the tractor, appeared to hit the object a couple of times and then return the tools and hurl the object towards the ditch at the edge of the field. He did this around 4 or 5 times whilst we watched and later my curiosity got the better of me, so on our walk as the sun cooled towards the evening, we took a detour along the field edge – it did not take us long to find two of the objects that has fallen just short of the ditch – yes live shells complete with fuses, but with their drive bands removed and obvious marks from a couple of chisel blows. The farmer looked to be in his 70s, though the work may have aged him, but he still must have been doing that for many years - he was certainly very adept at knocking the drive bands off with only a couple of blows!
 
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