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Star shells

Burney Davis

Burney Davis

Moderator
Premium Member
Discussion on star shells became part of an earlier thread but they are worth a separate thread. Below are pictures of a WW1 75mm German Naval star shell. Dimensions are

Overall length 295mm

Base to driving band 38mm

Width of driving band 10mm


DSCN6634.jpgDSCN6638.jpgDSCN6636.jpgDSCN6635.jpg

The projectile is dated IX 1914 and has the German naval mark. I am unaware of any 75mm German naval guns of that period so would appreciate any thoughts on the shell case that would have been used with it.

The second projectile is, I believe, a star shell for the 77mm field gun.

Overall length 318mm

Base to driving band 26mm

Width of driving band 8mm

The fuse is not original to the body. Information I have says that the correct fuze would be a Zt Zs 24 but as I don't have one I have topped it off with one of the same profile. Can anyone confirm if that fuze would be correct and post a picture or information on it?

DSCN6643.jpgDSCN6640.jpgDSCN6644.jpg

All comments welcome.

D
 
In old French documentation from 1919 the fuze is described with 29 graduations but with the denomination ZtzS/24 (it's inconsistent !) and nobody has ever seen this fuze ! Maybe a mistake...
The rare 7.7 star shells I saw in collections were always fitted with the 29-grad. fuze but without markings.

Could you give us accurate diameter of base and driving band (first shell) ?

Thank you.

Regards
 
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I know your 75 mm star shell used for Krupp guns in calibre 75x278R, the driving band is in same shape and position like on shrapnel and HE shells. It is a little bit curious why it has a naval acceptance stamp because I also have no idea about a german naval gun in 75 mm. At the moment I am unsure if I read somewhere that all star shells became inspected in naval facilities.

I have seen both the Krupp 75 mm and the 77 mm star shell with the short S/29 fuze.

All ammunition manuals from 1918 mention a "Zt.Z. S/24" for the star shells (7,7 cm & 10,5 cm). Sadly I don't own older manuals. Interestingly the firing table for the "7,7 cm Feldkanone 96 n/a" printed in 1918 mentions a maximum fuze setting time of 28,8 sec for the star shell (no fuze designation mentioned, but must be the S/29).

As usage for the Lg.Z.S/22 French and British documents only mention 10,5 cm howitzer star shells and no 7,7 cm or 7,5 cm shell, weird...

So as always more questions than answers :)
 
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Hi,

In volume 5 of Bernard Delsert's "L'artillerie de Campagne de l'arme impriale allemande" dedicated to the 7,7 cm F.K.16 this shell is described as the 7,7 cm Leuchtgescho der F.K.16

Pascal
 

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silent knight said:
Hi,

In volume 5 of Bernard Delsert's "L'artillerie de Campagne de l'arme impriale allemande" dedicated to the 7,7 cm F.K.16 this shell is described as the 7,7 cm Leuchtgescho der F.K.16

Pascal
Click to expand...

Hi Pascal,

As the projectile is dated 1914 it certainly wasn't designed to be used with the FK 16. The base diameter is 74.5mm and the outside measurements of the driving band is 78.5mm. However, measuring the bourrelet it has a diameter of 76.5mm so it would not have been able to fit in a 75mm barrel! I didn't think to measure the bourrelet before now, a poor mistake. But if designed to be used with the 77mm gun, why the different driving band and its place on the projectile, and also a flat surface below the driving band?

Best

D
 
Hello,

78.5mm for driving band ? Maybe a mistake. Same dimension as bourrelet ? (76.5cm)
 
Hi
The driving band outside dimention is right for 78,5 but inside grooves when shell is fired is sure 77.5 cm so not for 75 mm gun
There is a nice shell in ESAM Bourges Museum fitted with S/22 fuse
 
Considering the groove depht of the 7,7 cm FK is 0.75mm
78,5 - (2 x 0,75) = 77mm

This added to the fact that the bourrelet is 76,5mm, I assume this is compatible with the 7,7 cm FK
 
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In 1914 only the F.K.96 n/A was used. The manuals say that this gun used a "Leuchtgeschosspatrone" which means it was a cartridge and no separate ammunition (the picture in the manual shows Burney's 77 mm shell with crimp grooves). According to the ammunition manual this same cartridge was also used in the F.K.16. It was the only cartridge shot used in the F.K.16, all other ammunition was separate loaded. But the grooves of the ground dug shell shown by MinenAZ16 which appears to be the same as Burneys shell looks like fired from a 77 mm gun (as far as I can see it). If it is not already blown up, maybe MinenAZ16 can count the grooves?

@Burney Davis: the diameter on the bourrelet was measured with micrometer screw or good digital caliper?
 
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Alpini said:
@Burney Davis: the diameter on the bourrelet was measured with micrometer screw or good digital caliper?
Click to expand...

The bourrelet was measured with a vernier gauge Alpini, about as accurate as you can get considering there is paint on the area.

D
 
I ask because one extensively used calibre not far from your measurement is still left: 76,2 mm. I have some doubts myself about 76,2 mm because I can't find in which year the first converted 76,2 mm guns were used (I guess it was around 1915) and I also can't find any info if a german 76,2 mm star shell ever existed. It is just another idea to bring into discussion :)

What I find unusual with your shell is the large diameter "step" below the bourrelet. This could be a sign that the shell was originally intended to be used for a different calibre.
 
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Hello Alpini,

I no longer have this round...
But as far as I remember this shell had no groove below the band. The first time I saw BD's shell I recognized it. Exactly the same I found ; and for sure not fired from a boat !!
I saw remnants of the same shell on a french forum, found on a battlefield in the North of France.


Regards


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Alpini said:
I ask because one extensively used calibre not far from your measurement is still left: 76,2 mm. I have some doubts myself about 76,2 mm because I can't find in which year the first converted 76,2 mm guns were used (I guess it was around 1915) and I also can't find any info if a german 76,2 mm star shell ever existed. It is just another idea to bring into discussion :)

What I find unusual with your shell is the large diameter "step" below the bourrelet. This could be a sign that the shell was originally intended to be used for a different calibre.
Click to expand...

Like you, I can find no reference to 76.2mm before 1915. And as you have said, the driving band style and positioning is exactly where you would expect to find it on 75mm shells. As Pascal has said, the bore numbers make sense for a 77mm shell and Sebastien has the same shell (we think) so it is not unique. It cannot have been machined down from a 77mm shell as there would be signs, so why no crimp grooves?

Hopefully something will become clear, but I'd like to thank everyone for their input to this thread which has made the little grey cells work overtime!

D
 
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