Two 303 Incendiary Rounds B1VZ 1941 one with a stepped bullet and the other a normal ball.
Andy
Andy
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Two Incendiary 303 rounds
- Thread starter Andysarmoury
- Start date
Hi the head stamps are R*L 1941 B1VZ and DAC 1942 BVIIZ you will find that both the Mk 1VZ and VIIZ had blue tips according to the book Labbett & Mead.
Andy
Andy
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Sorry to correct you but read Page 118-119 again. \"In some instances the tip of the B Mark IV.z* bullet was painted blue\"
The B Mark IVz* was the Kynoch design that had a slightly different internal construction to the B Mark IV and was known as the trade pattern. These were not headstamped as \"BIVz\" but either \"VIIB\" or \"BZ\".
Only these had a blue tip. The normal B Mark IV manufactured by Royal Laboratory (like yours) had plain tips. The blue tip was not introduced until the B. Mark VIIz came into service (as per your Canadian example)
The shade of blue on your BIV is reminiscent of the lighter blue that Kynoch used on their trade incendiaries and I wonder whether either the wrong bullet has been put in the RL case or whether in fact RL loaded some Kynoch projectiles. The only way to tell is to put a Kynoch B.IVz* alongside yours and compare them. The steps are in a slighly different place. I will post a picture once I have got my brain in gear.
Regards
Tony
The B Mark IVz* was the Kynoch design that had a slightly different internal construction to the B Mark IV and was known as the trade pattern. These were not headstamped as \"BIVz\" but either \"VIIB\" or \"BZ\".
Only these had a blue tip. The normal B Mark IV manufactured by Royal Laboratory (like yours) had plain tips. The blue tip was not introduced until the B. Mark VIIz came into service (as per your Canadian example)
The shade of blue on your BIV is reminiscent of the lighter blue that Kynoch used on their trade incendiaries and I wonder whether either the wrong bullet has been put in the RL case or whether in fact RL loaded some Kynoch projectiles. The only way to tell is to put a Kynoch B.IVz* alongside yours and compare them. The steps are in a slighly different place. I will post a picture once I have got my brain in gear.
Regards
Tony
Hi Tony
Thanks for that.
Andy
Thanks for that.
Andy
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
The B Mark IV is an interesting round, in that it took so long to come into service. It is a direct descendant of the WWI Buckingham rounds and was an attempt to improve performance against aircraft or balloon fabric.
The original Buckingham Mark I was round nosed and did not feed well in MGs. The Mark II had the normal pointed profile but it was found that it left too small a hole in the fabric of balloons on exit and did not \"pull\" enough hydrogen out of the balloon for the phosphorous to ignite.
The Mark III in mid 1918 sought to overcome this by having a small flat on the nose to punch a hole in the fabric and this remained in service until the end of WWI.
An experimental Buckingham with the characteristic \"step\" in the envelope was produced in 1918 with the idea that the sharp step would cut a better hole in the fabric rather like a hole punch in paper. The war ended before design work was finished and trials continued into the 1920s.
It was eventually approved in the late 1920s (not shown in Lists of Changes) and the earliest known B.IV is headstamped 1929. The B.IV continued to be the main incendiary used by the RAF until the introduction of the so-called De Wilde B Mark VI in 1940. The B Mark was a base fused incendiary that never was introduced for service.
Regards
TonyE
The original Buckingham Mark I was round nosed and did not feed well in MGs. The Mark II had the normal pointed profile but it was found that it left too small a hole in the fabric of balloons on exit and did not \"pull\" enough hydrogen out of the balloon for the phosphorous to ignite.
The Mark III in mid 1918 sought to overcome this by having a small flat on the nose to punch a hole in the fabric and this remained in service until the end of WWI.
An experimental Buckingham with the characteristic \"step\" in the envelope was produced in 1918 with the idea that the sharp step would cut a better hole in the fabric rather like a hole punch in paper. The war ended before design work was finished and trials continued into the 1920s.
It was eventually approved in the late 1920s (not shown in Lists of Changes) and the earliest known B.IV is headstamped 1929. The B.IV continued to be the main incendiary used by the RAF until the introduction of the so-called De Wilde B Mark VI in 1940. The B Mark was a base fused incendiary that never was introduced for service.
Regards
TonyE
Tony maybe slightly off topic but when i was kid i used to go to an old raf range and dig live rounds out of the butts there(from firing position).we used to snap the heads off and one of these i thought at the time was a tracer and stupidly tried to burn it off on my mothers cooker..It went with a right bang and left a dent in the cooker hood,,could this have been one of the base fuzed ones you are talking about
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
I very much doubt it Spotter. The B Mark V was only ever a very limited experimental round - I have only ever seen one in forty years. It is much more likely to have been a B Mark VI or VII, either of which go off rather well as both are filled with SR 365. I have fired B Mark VIIs against steel test plates and they produce a very impressive detonation for such a relatively small projectile.
Regards
TonyE
Regards
TonyE
Hello my name is John and I am new to this forum.
I saw this topic and I have a question about some incendiary 303 ammo that I have.They are all marked BVIIZ and the dates range from 43 to 44 . Most of them have RG on them and the remainder have a K or K5 before the date.A large portion has SR before the date as well.
I bought these from someone who thought they were tracer rounds but when I got them home and looked at them I saw they are all incendiary.I have close to 400 of them.They are all in very clean condition except for a few which I picked out and used.I fired a few thru my MK 5 and they emitted a very bright white flash when they reached their target.Needless to say they are fun to shoot but just cant bring myself to waste them on target practice.I defineately want to keep some of them but is there somewhere that I can find out the value of them and see if anyone would want to buy some of them?
Respectfully,
John Rogers
I saw this topic and I have a question about some incendiary 303 ammo that I have.They are all marked BVIIZ and the dates range from 43 to 44 . Most of them have RG on them and the remainder have a K or K5 before the date.A large portion has SR before the date as well.
I bought these from someone who thought they were tracer rounds but when I got them home and looked at them I saw they are all incendiary.I have close to 400 of them.They are all in very clean condition except for a few which I picked out and used.I fired a few thru my MK 5 and they emitted a very bright white flash when they reached their target.Needless to say they are fun to shoot but just cant bring myself to waste them on target practice.I defineately want to keep some of them but is there somewhere that I can find out the value of them and see if anyone would want to buy some of them?
Respectfully,
John Rogers
Aztrooper I have just been in contact with John Carlin,He is away untill 29th dec but says send him an email ref these rounds
Email him at this address
sales@jcmilitaria.com
regards spotter
Email him at this address
sales@jcmilitaria.com
regards spotter
Thank you for contacting him. I will email him. I did not realize that it was illegal to have live ammo in the UK, looking back on it now I shold have known better because I was told once that owning a firearm in the UK wasnt allowed . I feel bad about making the post, please accept my apologies.
This is an incredible forum, I know that I will learn a lot.
Sincerely,
John Rogers
This is an incredible forum, I know that I will learn a lot.
Sincerely,
John Rogers
Hi John do you have any 303 rounds you want to swap.:laugh:
Andy
Andy
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
First to answer John's identification question./
RG is Royal Ordnance Factory Radway Green in Cheshire.
K is of course ICI Kynoch, Witton, Birmingham.
K5 is ICI Kynoch, Kidderminster, Worcestershire
SR is Royal Ordnance Factory, Spennymoor, County Durham.
The B.VII incendiary is not rare and are not worth a great deal of money, no more that a couple of pounds each.
The problem is the legality. Incendiary rounds are classed as Section 5 items, i.e. prohibited ammunition. They come under Section (5)(1A)d of the Firearms Act and it is illegal to have even a projectile without the appropriate authority. That means that even inerted rounds are illegal to hold without a Firearms Certificate varied for Section 5 prohibited ammunition (which I have).
BTW, I presume John means a Rifle No.5 Mk I (Jungle Carbine), not a Mark V which was an experimental SMLE with the rear sight mounted on the receiver bridge similar to the No.4!
Regards
TonyE
RG is Royal Ordnance Factory Radway Green in Cheshire.
K is of course ICI Kynoch, Witton, Birmingham.
K5 is ICI Kynoch, Kidderminster, Worcestershire
SR is Royal Ordnance Factory, Spennymoor, County Durham.
The B.VII incendiary is not rare and are not worth a great deal of money, no more that a couple of pounds each.
The problem is the legality. Incendiary rounds are classed as Section 5 items, i.e. prohibited ammunition. They come under Section (5)(1A)d of the Firearms Act and it is illegal to have even a projectile without the appropriate authority. That means that even inerted rounds are illegal to hold without a Firearms Certificate varied for Section 5 prohibited ammunition (which I have).
BTW, I presume John means a Rifle No.5 Mk I (Jungle Carbine), not a Mark V which was an experimental SMLE with the rear sight mounted on the receiver bridge similar to the No.4!
Regards
TonyE
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
First to answer John's identification question./
RG is Royal Ordnance Factory Radway Green in Cheshire.
K is of course ICI Kynoch, Witton, Birmingham.
K5 is ICI Kynoch, Kidderminster, Worcestershire
SR is Royal Ordnance Factory, Spennymoor, County Durham.
The B.VII incendiary is not rare and are not worth a great deal of money, no more that a couple of pounds each.
The problem is the legality. Incendiary rounds are classed as Section 5 items, i.e. prohibited ammunition. They come under Section (5)(1A)d of the Firearms Act and it is illegal to have even a projectile without the appropriate authority. That means that even inerted rounds are illegal to hold without a Firearms Certificate varied for Section 5 prohibited ammunition (which I have).
BTW, I presume John means a Rifle No.5 Mk I (Jungle Carbine), not a Mark V which was an experimental SMLE with the rear sight mounted on the receiver bridge similar to the No.4!
Regards
TonyE
RG is Royal Ordnance Factory Radway Green in Cheshire.
K is of course ICI Kynoch, Witton, Birmingham.
K5 is ICI Kynoch, Kidderminster, Worcestershire
SR is Royal Ordnance Factory, Spennymoor, County Durham.
The B.VII incendiary is not rare and are not worth a great deal of money, no more that a couple of pounds each.
The problem is the legality. Incendiary rounds are classed as Section 5 items, i.e. prohibited ammunition. They come under Section (5)(1A)d of the Firearms Act and it is illegal to have even a projectile without the appropriate authority. That means that even inerted rounds are illegal to hold without a Firearms Certificate varied for Section 5 prohibited ammunition (which I have).
BTW, I presume John means a Rifle No.5 Mk I (Jungle Carbine), not a Mark V which was an experimental SMLE with the rear sight mounted on the receiver bridge similar to the No.4!
Regards
TonyE
Hi Tony it sounds if you have the same Firearms Certificate as me i can keep anything up to 20 mm (live rounds that is) also explosive - expanding and AP.
Andy
Andy
Thank you for the information Tony,
I appreciate it,I was not aware how strict the rules are in the UK regarding firearms and ammunition. Thankfully it is not like that in the US, but we can not afford to take that for granted, as it is a constant struggle to keep our rights to keep and bear arms and ammunition so gun owners are having to keep a constant watch for anti gun legislation.
Also you are quite right, it is a No.5 Jungle carbine I used not the Mk5 like I posted. I dont know why, but that is a mistake I make more often that you would believe.I like most wish I had or could even find a Mk5 but to tell you the truth Im very happy with the No5.My Father had one so I bought this one,even though it isnt the same one he had, it still reminds me of him.
Andy, where do you live?
Well, in case I dont get back on here before, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas!
Sincerely,
John Rogers
I appreciate it,I was not aware how strict the rules are in the UK regarding firearms and ammunition. Thankfully it is not like that in the US, but we can not afford to take that for granted, as it is a constant struggle to keep our rights to keep and bear arms and ammunition so gun owners are having to keep a constant watch for anti gun legislation.
Also you are quite right, it is a No.5 Jungle carbine I used not the Mk5 like I posted. I dont know why, but that is a mistake I make more often that you would believe.I like most wish I had or could even find a Mk5 but to tell you the truth Im very happy with the No5.My Father had one so I bought this one,even though it isnt the same one he had, it still reminds me of him.
Andy, where do you live?
Well, in case I dont get back on here before, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas!
Sincerely,
John Rogers