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Vickers K (or GO) as fitted to gun turrets

Just me

Active Member
I am trying to find any information possible on the Vickers K as fitted to gun turrets.

In all cases they removed the rear of the gun (trigger housing etc) and they fitted either an electric or pneumatic firing mechanism and sometimes a gun sight.

I have found no manuals that cover this and only the photo below.

Has anybody got any material on these guns - photos, manuals, training notes that they are willing to share?

1734598095854.png
 
The “Vickers MG Collecion & Research Association“ might be able to assist. They have a facebook page, and a blog on the internet. Some scanned materials are free, others are available to their Patreon supporters.


I have seen remotely fired Vickers GO mounted on the wings of a SAS jeep.
 
Many thanks Reccetrooper.

I now know it is the Vickers Gas-Operated No 3 Mk I and how to join that group which is far more than I knew before.

A very merry Christmas (or Bah humbug of your choice) to you and yours
 
I found a photo of remotely fired Vickers GO mounted on the wings of a SAS jeep.
 

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Many thanks but that looks like an SAS lash up as that solenoid would be in the middle of the gunners head in a Bristol Mk 1 turret. This is one of the two installations I am trying to find the missing gun data on. The Mk 1E turret had a second VGO mounted vertically to the left of this gun but was otherwise almost identical
1734744074725.png
 
My colleague in this search has contacted the Vickers group to find if they can help us. From another person I recieved four drawings of Vickers guns - two of the Mk V, one of the GO and one of the GO magazine. These are attached in a PDF.

From one manual on VMG website I found this statement.
1734923850526.png

From that, the photo in my OP and one drawing in the attached PDF I am guessing the No 3 gun back end looks something like this lash up below with the top view being the standard No 1 and the lower being the No 3, with a dust cover to fitted as well. The dust cover seems to be missing from the photo we started with which suggests that it must be removed in order to disconnect the Bowden cables.

1734930535393.png
Now we just need to find better details of the new lever and cable attach fittings to complete the installation on paper at least. The real weapon is not allowed in this part of the world.

Just to throw a loop into the project is the following statement in the turret manual.

1734925340674.png

The electro-hydraulic unit is mounted at seat level so the gun is still fired by Bowden cable but now we must also find another manual - AP 1641E Vol 1 Part 5 Chapter 1. If anyone has this and could supply it would be greatly appreciated.

1734925582560.png
 

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It seems tht there si a need for a few additional details to avoid misunderstandings on this issue:
The Vickers K in the RAF and RNAS was introduced to equip open-air single-gun turrets - the classic so called ("observer gun position" (Swordfish and such aircraft). These Vickers K were the regular model with the block and handle.


The single Vickers K gun installation in a closed turret was initially done using the Bristol "pedestal mounting":

Vickers K - Bristol Pillar mounting.jpg


The most common installation was a development of the former one, in the form of the Bristol B.I turret which equipped RAF Blenheim, and with some modifications the Australian Bleinheim and Beauforts.
The blenheim manual includes these lines when speaking of the upper turret::
"On the right handle was the Gun-firing Trigger, linked to the Gun by a Bowden Cable.
In later Versions, the Trigger operated Solenoid Units attached to the Guns. "

The following photographs are of the Australian installation - Pay attention to the way the vickers K is mounted, laying on its side, quite different from the Bleinheim turret instalation.

Beaufort turret 6.jpgBeaufort Turret 5.jpgBeaufort Turret 4.jpgBeaufort turret 3.jpgBeaufort Turret schemma 2.jpgBeaufort turret schema.jpg


Concerning double gun turrets installation, modifications appeared to be necessary:
The RAF document "AIR 41-82 SD 737 Armament Vol II Guns, Gunsights, Turrets, Ammunition and Pyrotechnics" includes the following lines:
"The Vickers ' K ' was accepted as a replacement for the Lewis gun on 11 February 1936, an experimental order for 200 being placed for Service trials.
The Vickers G.O. was to be used in turrets which were designed for single guns,
...
In order to increase the fire power for bomber defence a twin version of the Vickers G.O. gun was considered.
This twin gun, which was ready towards the end of 1938, consisted of two G.O. guns mounted on their sides with the feed openings outwards and ejection openings downwards.
The mounting yoke was replaced by a fitting which connected the two guns together, and the back blocks were replaced by a common back block connocting the two guns at the rear, and having a single gear mechanism.
In the left-hand gun the body and breech block were special parts and not interchangeable with the standard components.
The first trials with the gun were not very successful; it gave frequent ' caps out ', in spite of the modified ejector, and suffered a number of
breakages of minor components. After firing a considerable number of rounds, the gun was returned to Messrs. Vickers. Upon examination and fuller range tests, it was found that although originally the gun fired at 1,000 rounds per rninute, during the trials the speed had worked up to over 1,200 rounds per minute, and it was this high speed that was causing caps out · and the breakage of components. The gun was re-built by Vickers and a further trial carried out on the Army range at Hythe. The gas recoil system had been adjusted to keep the speed below 1,000 rounds per minute, and the gun fired 20,000 rounds without further trouble. At the end of this trial the bodies and back block had fired over 40,000 rounds and one body was still serviceable. The Air Staff were notified that the new Vickers G.O. gun was considered suitable for use in
the Service, but there were considerable delays in deciding whether the twin gun should be adopted.
Before a decision had been given, Bomber Command asked as a result of early operations, for two guns to be mounted on the rear cockpits of Hampden aircraft in place of the single gun. As, however, the production of the twin gun involved special tooling up, and consequent serious delays, it was decided, in view of the production position, to abandon further work on the twin gun.
As the war progressed, the aircraft fitted with Vikkers G.O. guns were gradually withdrawn from operational use, and replaced by aircraft equipped with Browning gun turrets.
By 1943, the Vickers G.O. gun was virtually obsolete in the Royal Air Force, although it continued to be issued in the Fleet Air Arm until the end of the war. A large number of guns rendered surplus to requirements were issued to the Army and Navy for ground use."

I hope this will help.
 
It seems tht there si a need for a few additional details to avoid misunderstandings on this issue:
The Vickers K in the RAF and RNAS was introduced to equip open-air single-gun turrets - the classic so called ("observer gun position" (Swordfish and such aircraft). These Vickers K were the regular model with the block and handle.


The single Vickers K gun installation in a closed turret was initially done using the Bristol "pedestal mounting":

View attachment 200819


The most common installation was a development of the former one, in the form of the Bristol B.I turret which equipped RAF Blenheim, and with some modifications the Australian Bleinheim and Beauforts.
The blenheim manual includes these lines when speaking of the upper turret::
"On the right handle was the Gun-firing Trigger, linked to the Gun by a Bowden Cable.
In later Versions, the Trigger operated Solenoid Units attached to the Guns. "

The following photographs are of the Australian installation - Pay attention to the way the vickers K is mounted, laying on its side, quite different from the Bleinheim turret instalation.

View attachment 200813View attachment 200814View attachment 200815View attachment 200816View attachment 200817View attachment 200818


Concerning double gun turrets installation, modifications appeared to be necessary:
The RAF document "AIR 41-82 SD 737 Armament Vol II Guns, Gunsights, Turrets, Ammunition and Pyrotechnics" includes the following lines:
"The Vickers ' K ' was accepted as a replacement for the Lewis gun on 11 February 1936, an experimental order for 200 being placed for Service trials.
The Vickers G.O. was to be used in turrets which were designed for single guns,
...
In order to increase the fire power for bomber defence a twin version of the Vickers G.O. gun was considered.
This twin gun, which was ready towards the end of 1938, consisted of two G.O. guns mounted on their sides with the feed openings outwards and ejection openings downwards.
The mounting yoke was replaced by a fitting which connected the two guns together, and the back blocks were replaced by a common back block connocting the two guns at the rear, and having a single gear mechanism.
In the left-hand gun the body and breech block were special parts and not interchangeable with the standard components.
The first trials with the gun were not very successful; it gave frequent ' caps out ', in spite of the modified ejector, and suffered a number of
breakages of minor components. After firing a considerable number of rounds, the gun was returned to Messrs. Vickers. Upon examination and fuller range tests, it was found that although originally the gun fired at 1,000 rounds per rninute, during the trials the speed had worked up to over 1,200 rounds per minute, and it was this high speed that was causing caps out · and the breakage of components. The gun was re-built by Vickers and a further trial carried out on the Army range at Hythe. The gas recoil system had been adjusted to keep the speed below 1,000 rounds per minute, and the gun fired 20,000 rounds without further trouble. At the end of this trial the bodies and back block had fired over 40,000 rounds and one body was still serviceable. The Air Staff were notified that the new Vickers G.O. gun was considered suitable for use in
the Service, but there were considerable delays in deciding whether the twin gun should be adopted.
Before a decision had been given, Bomber Command asked as a result of early operations, for two guns to be mounted on the rear cockpits of Hampden aircraft in place of the single gun. As, however, the production of the twin gun involved special tooling up, and consequent serious delays, it was decided, in view of the production position, to abandon further work on the twin gun.
As the war progressed, the aircraft fitted with Vikkers G.O. guns were gradually withdrawn from operational use, and replaced by aircraft equipped with Browning gun turrets.
By 1943, the Vickers G.O. gun was virtually obsolete in the Royal Air Force, although it continued to be issued in the Fleet Air Arm until the end of the war. A large number of guns rendered surplus to requirements were issued to the Army and Navy for ground use."

I hope this will help.

Excellent information and summary Dreamk and it contains a lot of information and diagrams that are new to me. Thank you.

Do you have the complete AP 1659B Vol 1 Chap 7 or just those loose pages?

I will point out some errors though in your diagrams Illustration 6 and Figure 7 from your RAAF Pub 294 second edition showing what is labelled as a Mk 1E turret. That is in fact the Mk 1 turret.

The 1E had a second GO gun mounted vertically to the left of the gun shown, with the main visual cues being a different cutout in the cupola, a different armour plate and a second inlet in the top of the spent brass container to collect cases from the second gun. The Australian Mk 1E turrets had a number of other components that were different to those in the UK made turrets as they have GAF part numbers and the RAAF called the turret a POGM meaning Power Operated Gun Mounting. The cupola was also different with little saddles holding the perspex in place that I have never seen in photos of RAF Mk 1/1E turrets.

The same diagrams are in section 3 of the first edition of RAAF 294 and in that are correctly labelled as Mk 1 turret.
 
Just for your information the No3 MKI is fitted in a twin mount on the nearest Jeep in this famous photo of the SAS in 1942. They have added a Bren gun handle to the underside for better control.
 

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