WW1 7.92mm reversed projectile and steel core ammunition

[pointblank0]

Hello all. Does anyone have any original examples of the above rounds? I believe the steel core rounds were introduced to combat sniper shield plates in about 1915. The reversed projectile idea is new to me and I had never heard of it before, used, I believe, to also combat armour plate early on.

My question for the reversed projectile round is - Were these official rounds resulting from trench experimentation or were they just adapted by soldiers in the trenches during short supplies of the steel core rounds?

Thanks,

Rob

 

[ben2000]

Hi Rob,

they were adapted from standard ball rounds by the soldiers i believe. There was a documentary i saw once (may have been an episode of trench detectives) in which they tried them out. the results were very interesting!

Ben.

 

[TonyE]

The question of reversed bullets and their ability to penetrate plate, either British sniper shields or tank armour, has been discussed ad nauseam on the Great War Forum. A search for "reversed bullets" will reveal pages of discussion. Try this one:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142407&st=0

Tests recently carried out (at the Defence Academy) for the TV documentary showed this was possible. The plate was of similar thickness and hardness to contemporary tank armour. Somewhere I have some pictures I took of the plate used in the tests.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Big Dave]

The TV documentary was Finding the Fallen ,Andy Robertshaw presents it and its usually on one of the Sky history channels .The episode with the reversed bullet tests is the one about the bits of a British tank found in a wood ?Regards Dave

 

[pointblank0]

Thanks all for the quick responses. I will certaily try out that link tonight and hunt down the documentry.

 

[Dutch]

It is forme hard to believe that a bullet reverse in a case have a bigger impact as anormal round.

Btw, I havenever seen any German paper telling me about the existence of this round.
Some timeago I found this picture in the net what should proof the existence of thisround. Give it your own judgment. It could be, somebody made this round and putthem in the ground for a couple of years. It could also be made in 1917. Anyway,they were never made in a factory this way.

To be fairI must admit the existence of some other, non factory made rounds. Thesecartridges were only made at the front.


Rgds
Dutch

 

[smle2009]

I have seen a documentary about excavating a WW1 British trench and a .303" round was supposedly found with a reversed bullet in it,my problem with this how would you get the longer part of the projectile in a .303" case with the cordite 'sticks' and wad still in the case? have tried it and the projectile will not go in far enough for the case to grip the bullet and falls out if held upside down.
Just a personal observation on my part.

Cheers
Tony

 

[MissingSomething]

As far as I have read they were an unauthorized modification to ammunition. The second round with the long "projectile" is a round that was suppose to be used in "taking out" wire obstacles (pg. 39-40 of German 7.9mm by Kent). What is the headstamp on the cartridges?

 

[TonyE]

Confirm that the long steel bullet was made for single loading (possibly with the bolt removed?) for breaking wire. How effective it was I know not!

Regards
TonyE

 

[Andysarmoury]

I too have seen the program on sky and could not get it, as tony (smle2009) has said to reverse a bullet in a 303 case doesn’t work nor dose it in a 7.92 unless you remove some powder but doing so can cause dangerous pressure and to do all that and re crimp the bullet in the trenches all a load of b*****s, yes it can be done under controlled conditions but with a different load, its another one of those program cock ups , did you see the program where they found a watch strap and it had some name on the back so they spent hundreds of pounds researching for a name England only to find the strap was made in England need I say more
Andy

 

[smle2009]

Yes I saw that one too Andy!
Of course the other thing to be taken into account is what service man,from any nation,would have risked being captured with rounds like this on them by the enemy?
I have never come across ammunition like this in the 'field' during the years I spent clearing farmland in Belgium and seriously doubt that it was practiced.
I also have some concerns about the 'barbed wire cutter' round being ever used on the front line,the effect of the 'projectile' on barbed wire must have been nothing short of nil,the range must have been very short and as TonyE has pointed out the bolt of the rifle would have to been removed to re-load each time....no I don't think anyone would have been daft enough to try this without realising that before they could re-load for a second go they would be on the receiving end of a bullet or grenade

Tony

 

[Andysarmoury]

Yes i agree Tony and why would the Germans go to all this trouble when they had armour piercing rounds, as for that barbed wire cutting cartridge i would hate to fire that i bet barrel life was short.
Cheers
Abdy

 

[Dutch]

The name inGermanyis “Drahtschneidepatrone” Also no official documentation known.
The ironrod of 4-6 Inch had a thickness about 7,8 mm. It was not a matter of precision;the rod was not rotating, but was blown instable out of the barrel.

There aresome “bullets” known with a marking “S” on top. What could be a hint that therods were delivered from Germany.Over the years I investigated 20 Cartridges I never seen 2 with the same dimensions.

Kindregards
Dutch

 

[Dutch]

The name in Germany is “Drahtschneidepatrone” Also no official documentation known.
The iron rod of 4-6 Inch had a thickness about 7,8 mm. It was not a matter of precision; the rod was not rotating, but was blown instable out of the barrel.

There aresome “bullets” known with a marking “S” on top. What could be a hint that the rods were delivered from Germany. Over the years I investigated 20 Cartridges and I never seen 2 with the same dimensions.

Kindregards
Dutch

BTW the head stamp of the round is S 4 15 S

 

[pointblank0]

Some very interesting replies here. By this, I assume that not many were found? I asked as I was reading a book called 'Band of Brigands'. It is about the first designs of the British tank and the crews that manned them. One of the specs were as follows - "...capable of stopping the German reversed bullet fired from ten yards range".

Then went on to say - "A standard 7.92mm round but with the lead bullet reversed in the cartridge case. Mauser ammunition like this was found in captured trenches in February 1915. The british thought these might be 'dumdum' bullets (and therefore banned) and carried out various tests amid press outrage. It was decided they were intended to be used against sniper shields and the matter was dropped".

So, if the above was true, there must be documentation from the British side from the investigation?

As with "Why bother when they had armour piercing rounds?" I wonder, and would imagine, that they may have been in very short supply for a while so forced soldiers to improvise, like all the jam tin bombs etc made, whilst waiting for grenade stores to arrive.

Quite interesting really. I'll get back to searching for more.

Thanks everyone.

 

[grapeshot]

Hi,
I have read about these German rounds about 15 to 20 years ago some where,
The only one I have come across was a French 8mm Lebel round which I found near Verdun when walking though some old trenches in the wooded hills.
Jim

 

[Dutch]

Thefirst known SmK round, was made in September 1914. In October a K (Kern) was addedto the head stamp ( core ) and a red annulus color. The head stamp showed isfrom November.

Inthe beginning it was used only by snipers. Later in 1915 when the round wasmade in larger quantities, also for airships, airplanes and ground use.

Youwrote "...capableof stopping the German reversed bullet fired from ten yards range" This isabout 3 meters, looks a little funny if we compare it with the performance ofthe SmK bullet.. I do not know the thicknessof steel plates of the first British tank but reading the documentation fromthe WW1, SmK bullets go true a steel plate of;

11.0mm at 100 Meter S bullet 5.5 mm
10,5mm at 200 Meter S bullet 5,2 mm
9.0mm at 400 meter S bullet 4,2 mm
5,5mm at 1000 meter S bullet 2.0 mm

Rgds
Dutch

 

[pointblank0]

10 yards is about 9.4 metres.
I also don't know the thikness of armour on the Mk1 tanks, but I know the specifications of armour thickness were changed a few times whilst the Mother tank was still in the design stage.
Rob

 

[SpudGun]

Of course the other thing to be taken into account is what service man,from any nation,would have risked being captured with rounds like this on them by the enemy?

Sometimes as a soldier you end up carrying items/rds you wouldn't to be captured with, that's just how it is........ still..... if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined :bigsmile:

 

[pointblank0]

So were the German 7.92 rounds loaded with rods of cordite too, or where they ground up? If they were ground, I would imagine that it was just a case of tipping a bit out and reversing the projectile?

I also read (whilst trying to find out a little more on this), that the effect was not to penetrate the armour, but to cause such a violent impact that the inside of the armour would flake slightly causing fragment wounds and blinding etc. I would imagine that the same would result from a rifle calibre wad cutter round?