British Ordnance Collectors Network
Join over 14,000 collectors of inert military ordnance. Get expert identification help for shells, fuzes, grenades, and more — plus access our classifieds marketplace and decades of archived knowledge. Free to register, takes seconds.
WW1 No36 Mills
- Thread starter usa1918
- Start date
This is where i got the designation of No4 for the Israeli mills
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/4147-Israeli-No36-grenade-question?highlight=israeli
Mmmmmmm. I'm still not sure about this. As I said where are the Isreali Nos 1,2 and 3? The Isreali Mills were produced by the Irgun for use against the British. In the same factory they were turning out 9mm ammo and 2" Mortars. I've never seen any reference to other Isreali made copy or original grenades from that time. This was not an arms industry, they were literally making stuff in secret in an underground factory.
John
John
If you go to post no13 on the following link member MichaelC from Israel also confirms the no4 designation http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/80359-Two-Israeli-No-36-Grenades/page2
I'm not sure that's what I'd call proof. A single reference without a link to any official document. As I said the original plugs had 44 on them which was about the time they started making them. That could be where it comes from. I've never seen a reference to an Isreali No 1, 2, 3 or 4.
John
John
John.The Jewish state did n't come into existence until 1948 . The chances of them making Mills grenades whilst WW2 was still going on is remote to say the least . Those Israeli No36's are from the 1950's almost certainly . Before that they either used captured grenades or pipe bomb type variants . Mike.
Hi Mike
Irgun and the Haganah operated in Palestine / Isreal from 1931 - 1948. Irgun actually declared war on The British Government in 1944. It is probably that fact that is commemorated on the baseplugs of the grenades. Certainly the Isreali Mills were being made prior to 1948 to be used against the British. They were made in a secret factory at Tol Monde. It is likely they were made into the 1950's until the Isrealis began buying French and US arms in quantity. It is a fact that these were made from the 1940's.
John
Irgun and the Haganah operated in Palestine / Isreal from 1931 - 1948. Irgun actually declared war on The British Government in 1944. It is probably that fact that is commemorated on the baseplugs of the grenades. Certainly the Isreali Mills were being made prior to 1948 to be used against the British. They were made in a secret factory at Tol Monde. It is likely they were made into the 1950's until the Isrealis began buying French and US arms in quantity. It is a fact that these were made from the 1940's.
John
John . We are all aware of the Palestinian / Jewish resistance groups including Irgun in the 1940's . I just can't believe they set up a factory to make the complcated No36 with all the casting equipment etc. needed for manufacture in 1944 . They would certainly have used stolen grenades or simple home made devices but a large facility for one hard to make grenade ? I think not . If anyone can find a definitive answer to this , I'd be most obliged .
Hi guys, sorry I have been abroad a little busy.
As for the Israeli No 4, it is a copy of the Mills 36 (as you all know) see attached - there are slight differences fro the original.
Most Israeli grenades are copies from other countries, such as the No 13 - a copy of the US MK2 or the now days most common No 26 a copy of M26.
the only original defence greandes in Israel were made before 1948 (Israel's independence) and made by the Hagana organization called USA grenades. These grenades have two types of fuses, one a rifle grenade fuse: based on an impact initiation upon firring with a short delay fuse, the other a regular lever fuse for throwing, based on the Polish/ French chemical fuse (lever releases two strikers that hit glass vials acid drops on to KCLO3, and a fuse burns)
By the way they are called USA as the inscription is on the body, stories say the idea was to try and fool the British as to the origin of the grenades and others say it is a joke the initials stand for "our Hebrew work" in Yiddish (near German).
To the question of the numbers - well the numbers are never sequential and for example No 5 is a smoke grenade No 10 a flashbang and 15 WP.
As for the Israeli No 4, it is a copy of the Mills 36 (as you all know) see attached - there are slight differences fro the original.
Most Israeli grenades are copies from other countries, such as the No 13 - a copy of the US MK2 or the now days most common No 26 a copy of M26.
the only original defence greandes in Israel were made before 1948 (Israel's independence) and made by the Hagana organization called USA grenades. These grenades have two types of fuses, one a rifle grenade fuse: based on an impact initiation upon firring with a short delay fuse, the other a regular lever fuse for throwing, based on the Polish/ French chemical fuse (lever releases two strikers that hit glass vials acid drops on to KCLO3, and a fuse burns)
By the way they are called USA as the inscription is on the body, stories say the idea was to try and fool the British as to the origin of the grenades and others say it is a joke the initials stand for "our Hebrew work" in Yiddish (near German).
To the question of the numbers - well the numbers are never sequential and for example No 5 is a smoke grenade No 10 a flashbang and 15 WP.
Mike, I previously posted an extract on the forum that gave the history of the underground factory. The Isreali factory was also turning out 2" Mortars and 9mm Ammo. Production numbers are even listed. Tom B doubted it too, but seemingly was in agreement when he found the same document elsewhere on the web. This was done pre 1948 without a doubt. The information comes from Isreal.
I have also found evidence of Mills Grenades being copied by other rebel groups from the 1920's. This is nothing new. The Isrealis did it in the 40's the Somalis did it in the 1990's. The Mills will probably still be copied in the future.
John
John,
I have not come to agreement with you on the subject of Israeli Mills' copies. I quoted a book reference found via Google, only because the relevant text was almost verbatim to what you had written earlier in the thread,
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/76071-Mills-grenade/page3?highlight=israeli+mills
which - in the absence of any other forthcoming documentary support from you - appeared to form your evidence.
No one has, so far as I understand, produced any evidence for 44 on the base plug being the date 1944, when you contend that "Irgun actually declared war on The British Government in 1944. It is probably that fact that is commemorated on the baseplugs of the grenades". I attach a photo, albeit from a mediocre phone camera, of an Israeli base plug marked 43. No doubt there is an explanation of this as being 1943.
You say you doubt the Israeli variant as being termed a No.4, and that you have never seen any official documentation, but that, along with photographs of early improvised Israeli grenades, has now been kindly provided by other members (previous posts).
Whether the 43 or 44 represents a 40's date, 50's, 80's or some totally different mark may not be solved to the satisfaction of all or any party.
Tom.
I have not come to agreement with you on the subject of Israeli Mills' copies. I quoted a book reference found via Google, only because the relevant text was almost verbatim to what you had written earlier in the thread,
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/76071-Mills-grenade/page3?highlight=israeli+mills
which - in the absence of any other forthcoming documentary support from you - appeared to form your evidence.
No one has, so far as I understand, produced any evidence for 44 on the base plug being the date 1944, when you contend that "Irgun actually declared war on The British Government in 1944. It is probably that fact that is commemorated on the baseplugs of the grenades". I attach a photo, albeit from a mediocre phone camera, of an Israeli base plug marked 43. No doubt there is an explanation of this as being 1943.
You say you doubt the Israeli variant as being termed a No.4, and that you have never seen any official documentation, but that, along with photographs of early improvised Israeli grenades, has now been kindly provided by other members (previous posts).
Whether the 43 or 44 represents a 40's date, 50's, 80's or some totally different mark may not be solved to the satisfaction of all or any party.
Tom.
Attachments
Last edited:
paul the grenade
Well-Known Member
can anyone translate the manual posted by sgt lynn? maybe it can shed some light onto the argument.
paul.
paul.
This thread seems to be getting a bit heated . I was informed that the 44 date on Israeli Mills grenades was actually a later date in the Jewish calender . This was from a professor at an Israeli university some years ago . He used to buy grenades from me when eBay was still user friendly as he was doing research into Israeli ordnance history . I can't remember his name [it was something like Finklestein ?] , perhaps some other BOCN members also dealt with him ? Really nice guy but we lost touch . Failing that , someone must know their local Rabbi & could ask him about the date thing ?
paul the grenade
Well-Known Member
Another thought on the matter, If the grenades were being made in underground factorys, would they even bother to date them or put on any other identification mark?
It seems to me a waste of time and unnecessary.
Paul.
It seems to me a waste of time and unnecessary.
Paul.
And to think that I started it all....just wanted to know the difference between the WW1 and WW2 No36 :tinysmile_fatgrin_t. As a slight change of subject:
Looking for a First War dtd No 36 or a No 23 MK III base plug. You can email me at keithness@comcast.net. Thanks in advance
Keith (usa1918)
Looking for a First War dtd No 36 or a No 23 MK III base plug. You can email me at keithness@comcast.net. Thanks in advance
Keith (usa1918)