Flechettes

[E-tech]

But, only because he's learned his lesson, right?

Ever hear of the Oerlikon-Contraves AHEAD projectile?

Seems that, although flechettes may be on their way out from the battlefield (due to bad PR and the "scary" look of the little dart),
The concept of cargo-carrying projectiles has taken off- using the 25mm+ sized cannon, with all of it's modern fire control equipment, and feeding it a round that will open up and dump a load of tungsten on the target at the last second (thanks to fancy new programmable fuzes), the kinetic energy can be relied on to deal with everything from human-wave assaults to ballistic missiles!

The link below has a nice cutaway picture of the AHEAD round- wish they would make something like this in .50BMG- even if it was a fixed time for the projectile to open- the increase in hit probability would be VERY comforting when sitting in the turret!
http://defense-update.com/products/a/ahead.htm

 

[navyman]

Hello US-Subs,
Thanks for the great pictures. My image is of a Reproduction fleschette I purchased recently from 'Dugup'. I think that as a repro it's very good?
Cheers,
navyman.

 

[HAZORD]

So what characteristics does it have that make you think it is a repro? Other than not being rusty.

 

[US-Subs]

Hello US-Subs,
Thanks for the great pictures. My image is of a Reproduction fleschette I purchased recently from 'Dugup'. I think that as a repro it's very good?
Cheers,
navyman.

Navyman,
It looks good, but I have to say, in principle I'm against reproductions. Nothing against your piece, I hope you enjoy it. But if you'll allow me a moment on my soapbox-
I've heard all of the reasons - I'll never be able to afford a real one, I didn't want to wait, I'll hold it till I find a real one and get rid of it - in my view repros are a contaminant. How many times have we seen someone's treasured piece, only to find its fake? Either by individuals intentionally committing fraud or by well intentioned collectors, the end result is the same. Eventually the false piece gets out and contaminates the history. To a certain extent the same can be said of some repair jobs, that go beyond simple repair. Fixing damage is one thing, re-creating history is another.

We all have pieces in our collections that we are not sure of, but when I look at the magnitude of postings here that refer to repros, or pieces that someone "fixed", I wonder just how many of these pieces will be out there 5-10-15 years down the line, with their original lineage lost, innocently or not? I feel that too many people are just unwilling to put in the work and time to search for the original pieces, save the money for what good items may cost, appreciate the original items all the more when they do find them. I seriously believe that repro and rebuilt pieces should be stamped as such, so the more serious collectors can look elsewhere and the researchers can avoid wasting their time.

Nothing personal Navyman, I honestly hope you enjoy your piece. I know my little rant will piss off a number of people on the site, I've read the posts. But frequently when I look at a piece I do it for research, to understand something found in the field. I refer to my own pieces as a reference collection for that very reason. For this same reason, however, if the piece isn't true, all that follows may be at fault. - Rant complete.

 

[BOMBSaway1980]

here's some real one off a BIP at our range

 

[proditto]

Small Arms Flechettes

Small selection of precision flechettes and cartridges. The triple flechette is as I received it. The owner was trying to deactivate it!
Interesting that the Steyre ACR used a flechette cartridge plastic cased and gave very good penetration out to long range.

 

[18pounder]

Navyman,
It looks good, but I have to say, in principle I'm against reproductions. Nothing against your piece, I hope you enjoy it. But if you'll allow me a moment on my soapbox-
I've heard all of the reasons - I'll never be able to afford a real one, I didn't want to wait, I'll hold it till I find a real one and get rid of it - in my view repros are a contaminant. How many times have we seen someone's treasured piece, only to find its fake? Either by individuals intentionally committing fraud or by well intentioned collectors, the end result is the same. Eventually the false piece gets out and contaminates the history. To a certain extent the same can be said of some repair jobs, that go beyond simple repair. Fixing damage is one thing, re-creating history is another.

We all have pieces in our collections that we are not sure of, but when I look at the magnitude of postings here that refer to repros, or pieces that someone "fixed", I wonder just how many of these pieces will be out there 5-10-15 years down the line, with their original lineage lost, innocently or not? I feel that too many people are just unwilling to put in the work and time to search for the original pieces, save the money for what good items may cost, appreciate the original items all the more when they do find them. I seriously believe that repro and rebuilt pieces should be stamped as such, so the more serious collectors can look elsewhere and the researchers can avoid wasting their time.

Nothing personal Navyman, I honestly hope you enjoy your piece. I know my little rant will piss off a number of people on the site, I've read the posts. But frequently when I look at a piece I do it for research, to understand something found in the field. I refer to my own pieces as a reference collection for that very reason. For this same reason, however, if the piece isn't true, all that follows may be at fault. - Rant complete.

good rant mate!

you do say 're creating history'.
I believe you cant have history without the human element , association with an object,whether its original or not.

All my bits and bobs have some history behind them,espcially the relics.

My home built repro 'potato masher' has deliberate spelling mistakes on the can,so can easily be distinguished from the real thing.

I'm a firm believer of personal choice,as long as it harms no one.

18pounder

p.s sorry for the rushed grammer

 

[spotter]

Brilliant post,,i never realised there were so many variations in types.think youve started my next phase of collecting

 

[Lou]

Watch out for the prices though.I paid $3.00 for six of them,cause I had to have them.Just like the ones Bombsaway posted.:xd:
Except mine are mint,unused.

 

[V40]

I now have over 2000 maybe 3000 1" Flechettes from maybe the Vietnam Era. Any body want some?

V40

 

[US-Subs]

Watch out for the prices though.I paid $3.00 for six of them,cause I had to have them.Just like the ones Bombsaway posted.:xd:
Except mine are mint,unused.

Don't feel too bad Lou, I paid $225 for one flechette!

 

[Lou]

I bet your fleshette is waaaaaaaaay better than mine!! I know Ive seen a few in that price range. Ive almost pushed the buy in now button on a number occasions.

 

[US-Subs]

I bought this one at the SLICS show in St. Louis last March, there is something about getting to touch it before you pay.... I don't currently have any photos of it, maybe next time home - About 2.5cm long, but worth every penny.

 

[SG500]

Small selection of precision flechettes and cartridges. The triple flechette is as I received it. The owner was trying to deactivate it!
Interesting that the Steyre ACR used a flechette cartridge plastic cased and gave very good penetration out to long range.

Nice selection prodito.
Is the one at the bottom of the photo the 9.8 X 76? It may be headstamped RWA plus a date of about 1970?
If so has anyone got any idea what one of these is worth?
Dave.

 

[US-Subs]

Sorry I haven't responded to some of the threads, I've been out of town and internet access was spotty at best.

I have no idea what the 9.8 x 76 sells for (for its "worth" see the thread by Dano), part of the problem with these cartridges is that there is so little hard data on them. Other than the occasional article in the cartridge journals there is only one book to my knowledge that covers even a few of them, that was the book on the SPIW. You see a number of cartridges at different shows which are stated as "this cartridge from this program", etc, but generally without historic reference. I've seen some items for sale that I was pretty sure were not even related to the different programs, but without a portable Xray in your pocket or strong reference material it can get pretty tough.

18pounder, I guess one part of my earlier rant comes from a life-long relationship with EOD and the study of explosive ordnance - there is nothing worse than studying and training on something and then going out in the field and realising that the discovery you are looking at does not match what you trained on, because your reference piece is something fake or altered to make it look better.

I understand that some people spend a lot of time and effort in carefully restoring critical pieces to their original condition with historical accuracy. My beef is not with them. But many people produce knock-off copies of rare items simply to make a buck, others buy them just for the immediate gratification and to save a buck. They flood the field with false pieces, which breeds false information which costs people money and can potentially get people hurt.

There isn't a serious collector out there that hasn't been burnt more than once on a fake, or an EOD tech that hasn't wasted days on some crap that turns out to be nothing (or vice, something serious that was marked as nothing).

For me, saying that this involvement of counterfeiting or modifying is part of the history is like saying assassination is part of the political process. It may be historical, but its a corruption, not a natural part. In my opinion it (copies) has no place in the world of serious ordnance study, research and collecting. (re-rant complete).

 

[US-Subs]

Nice selection prodito.
Is the one at the bottom of the photo the 9.8 X 76? It may be headstamped RWA plus a date of about 1970?
If so has anyone got any idea what one of these is worth?
Dave.

I would be interested in trading individual flechettes or extra flechette cartridges with anyone that has something not already in the collection - let me know if you are interested, I will be back in the US in Dec and have access to my extra stuff....

If people are interested, while on a semi-recent visit to Woodin Lab, Bill allowed me to photograph his company display boards of US experimental flechette cartridges. If there is interest I can dig though my files and find some more photos to post - The best reference materials I've found so far.

 

[proditto]

More Flechettes!

The head stamp is WRA with date 70. The shorter cartridge is an XM144 and the longer XM645. (From the previous owner).
The black cartridge is one from the CAW project. Interesting in that the flechettes tails are telescoped in the case and slide back after firing. Note also the center flechette is different.
More flechettes to show the variations. All but the three on the right are from small arms and have different diameters,lengths or different tails.
A very new use is in the 40mm High velocity(AGL type) M1001 cartridge with 113, 50mm long 17 grain flechettes. Spread of 3ft at 50m.

 

[proditto]

Flechettes again

Sorry forgot pics.

 

[SG500]

Here's a link to an interesting round.

Dave.

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/12-7x99-duds-t13547.html?t=13547

 

[US-Subs]

Thanks, that's one I hadn't seen before - so many pieces, so little time....