Flechettes

[US-Subs]

Bombs, in response to your PM question, I've included some of my personal flechette items. The first is one model of the 105mm recoilless rifle flechette projo, this is one of the early models. Following that is one of the 2-3 versions for the 90mm recoilless, the 2.75 warhead, and a couple 105mm. The first 105mm is undesignated, the second is the XM603. As I recall the fuze in the first 105mm is incorrect, it is the fuze for the 90mm flechette (not recoilless) and does not have the full range of settings for the 105mm.

 

[HAZORD]

Interesting stuff. I hadn't seen the 105RR before. Your 90mm RR is different than what I have seen, having the saw cut on the body. The first 105 looks like the Howitzer projo with the 90RR fuze you mentioned, and the second 105mm would be for the tank gun.

 

[US-Subs]

Latest offering of flechette boards. Relax Pete, its almost over.

 

[falcon5nz]

I seem to recall hearing stories of troops in Vietnam shovelling Flechettes out of the back of cargo planes and choppers. Am I mis-remembering?

Nick

 

[US-Subs]

This was the Lazy Dogs, a kinetic energy (gravity) submunition that was carried over from the Korean War. Originally it was loaded into small paper bags and packed into dispenser shells. They were shown earlier in this thread (what hasn't been?), second page, far right photo.

 

[US-Subs]

Jeff,

Photo number 4, what round is that layer of flechettes from that has the ratchet drive plate?

Three of us skipped work today to attend the Dutch EOD's 65th anniversary gathering, the party was just starting in earnest when we left. While there BLU-97 was kind enough to let me root through some of their collection and photograph a couple of their flechette pieces. Peteblight was along and moaning all the while as once he saw me taking the photos he knew his waterlogged thread was going down for the count .

John, here is a 105mm projo that uses a similar stacking system for the flechettes. I've also included a 2.75 warhead I hadn't seen before (in the midst of a cut-away), it takes a much larger and heavier flechette than the other (old style) 2.75's.

A note on the 105mm, it is clearly marked as an XM546. Strangely though, it is stamped as an XM380E5.

 

[HAZORD]

Yes, the longer 2.75 inch warhead is the antihelicopter round for the Apache longbow. I will post a photo of the darts.

 

[peteblight]

Ok so i accept defeat on the post count, however, correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the 105mm RR round actually 106mm????? :xd::xd::xd:

 

[HAZORD]

Pete,

A number of projectiles in the 105mm/106mm RR range were marked for use in both rifles. The HEP-T projos are stamped as such. Jeff didn't list a T or XM number for the 105mmRR projo.

I have attached the datasheet for the 106mm RR APERS. I will need to take a photo of the base section below the rotating band of my projo to compare.

 

[US-Subs]

Good question Pete!

In fact John is correct, the 106mm recoiless was originally designated as a 105mm, I have a reference someplace that explains that it was re-designated to avoid confusion by units ordering ammunition. So the pieces seen identified as 105mm RR are generally very early pieces.

I don't have the nomenclature of my photographed round with me, and its about 4000 miles away, so that will have to wait.

John, in regard to the flechette from the 2.75, BLU-97 was kind enough to allow me to snatch a few from both the 2.75 and the 105mm. I've decided that, while I do not fully consider the flechette as a submunition, it is worthy of documenting and that is as good a place for me to put it as any. When I return home I'll start individually photographing what I have, recording the size, weight (in grains) and the carrier munition. I've begun by segregating those I've recently recovered, as they were removed from their carriers. I want to avoid the situation where you are given some pieces with the usual statement - these came from, ummm, I think it was a rocket....

Here are photos of what I received yesterday, I'll photograph them when I am home, I have better lights, scales, etc and can do a much better job. Its easy to see from these photos how, even with a decent scale, the size can be deceptive. The 2.75 flechette is significantly larger than the one from the 105mm, but its only when they are side by side that you can really see it.

 

[V40]

Back in the early 1950's the US Army had an actual 105mm Recoiless Rifle designated the M27 and the M27A1. At that time it did not have any "Flechette" rounds for it.
Later in the mid 1950's the new RR came around that was entitled the "106 mm M40, M40A2, and M40A4". It was a better weapon all around than its predesser. Now what is unknown to most people is that it is a true 105mm RR. In the era in which both weapons were being used the decision was made to measure the new M40(A2) and M40A4's from the bottom of each groove (lands) to give it that 106mm designation. Now, the FM for the M40A1 (May 1964) states no "Flechette" rounds at that time. I believe it may have been closer to 19667-68 when the Flechette rounds for it were developed. Hope this helps you out?

 

[US-Subs]

Thanks for the info, I'll pull the round in a couple weeks when I get home and check it for stamped markings - see if I can get a date/XM or M number off from it.

My son searched the round couldn't find any markings, but with the multi-piece aluminum/steel construction of flechette projos you frequently get the stamped markings in some strange places - or completely absent. I've been negligent in his training the last year or so and he may have missed something, I'll check soon enough.

Going through my flechette files I noticed a copy of an Aug 1969 article from Shooting Times on the Spiw and its flechettes, I've pushed the size as much as I can and attached the article below. For those further interested I'd recommend the book on the SPIW, I'm away from my library right now, but as I recall the title was something like SPIW- The Deadliest Weapon that Never Was.

BS'ing with BLU-97 and others on Friday I found that there is a book published in France on the WWI air-dropped flechettes. I've found it on the net, but the vendors won't ship out of France, so I have requested a French collegue order it on my behalf and mail it to me. On receipt I'll let you know what I've learned.

 

[proditto]

Shotgun Flechette

Another flechette cartridge used during the SPIW program to check the effectiveness of the shotgun concept. Used a standard 12g case, this one from Remington.

 

[Ethan]

Were any of these particular set of flachettes used with an anti-coagulant to increase mortality rate, or do these predate that system?

Good post btw, thanks. =)

 

[US-Subs]

As far as I know the anti coagulent was a myth - makes a good story, but doesn't hold up to the factual information available.

There were toxic loaded flechettes, as well as explosive and incendiary. Some of these were disclosed during the Church Hearings (US Senate) back in 1975 or so, when the CIA, after the US dropped its BW program in 73, was found to still have some stuff left over from a couple programs. There have been roughly a couple dozen US designs that have shown up from these programs, and at least two UK designs.

 

[US-Subs]

Thought I'd posted this the other day, but the internet at this hotel is so poor the post is now probably on some porn site somewhere (let me know if you see it).

This is the cartridge initially discussed under SG500's thread on experimental stuff. I took the photos in the storage area at the USAF Air Armament Museum, it was tagged simply as "Experimental Aircraft Flechette Cartridge".

 

[HAZORD]

I think Dave is updating his want list. And I think this is the 100th reply on this thread Pete.

 

[peteblight]

100th Reply

Yep 100!!! or 101 now that i've succumbed to adding another :tinysmile_angry_t:

I'm trawling through my pictures to find something worthy of posting..........

If i find it it'll appear!

Pete

 

[SG500]

Thought I'd posted this the other day, but the internet at this hotel is so poor the post is now probably on some porn site somewhere (let me know if you see it).

This is the cartridge initially discussed under SG500's thread on experimental stuff. I took the photos in the storage area at the USAF Air Armament Museum, it was tagged simply as "Experimental Aircraft Flechette Cartridge".

NICE, where do I get one??
John, you're right, my wants list just got longer.
Dave.

 

[US-Subs]

At the moment I'd settle just to find out what it is....