RFX Richmond Foundry

[dano1917]

Thought I would clear up the Richmond foundary controversy for you. Attached you will find documentary evidence that
1- RFX is indeed Richmond Foundary & Mfg Co. Inc.
2- Richmond Foundary is From Richmond VA

Look at the markings on the bottom box.

This photo comes from and RCOC Ammunition Bulletin (Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps)

Hope this clears it up a bit for you all.:tinysmile_fatgrin_t

Sweet, Sure glad that one is put to bed but I am still betting on a genuine RFX MKII with no hole in bottom. Before jumping my crap notice I omitted "HE". I do not posess a genuine GI practice RFX MKII as of yet but one thing for sure is that I want one as I am intrigued by all the controversy (obvious) shrouding the RFX MKII, also totally love the RFX m30/62 genuine GI practice lemons. In fact, in general I am more intrigued bu U.S. Govt. Issue practice grenades than the HE ones. With all that said "Merry Christmas" to one and all...Dano

 

[dano1917]

An extremely interesting thread.

Can we see a pic of that rigid "borescope" camera? I'm thinkin' I want one of those.

Rick

Yes Rick, totally agree, a most informative and interesting thread about a grenade that I have a great affinity for.
1) We now (thanks sgtlynn) have difinitive evidence that the United States G.I. RFX practice were made by Richmond Foundry in Richmond VA. (who cares where the novelty surplus circuit dummies were made).

2) Still controversy surrounding if there was or was not a United States G.I. solid base grenade made (either HE or low order explosive - live practice unit)

3) Again I take a special interest in the US RFX grenades (MKII or lemon) as they were produced in and around the Vietnam era.

4) I will make it my lifes work to prove/disprove the existance of a solid base (HE or low order explosive) and will hopefully find some kind of difinitive evidence.

5) I have seen solid base MKII RFX grenades and believe them to be genuine USGI low order explosive (live practice) but cannot offer positive proof.

6) My last thing to address would be when the USGI practice MKII RFX was released. I think it to be 1950, 1951 or 1952, that is based mostly of opinions of seasoned collectors, again not fact.

Dano

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Pre Sept. 1945

I would like to say that I am a WW2 collector firstly, and everyone who reads any of my statements or opinions that I have said about the RFX grenades lately, my statements pertain to supposed RFX grenades made before Sept. 1945.

Of course I like our beloved "pineapple" grenades, and have a bit of interest in the history of them until they were phased out of service, but really have no BIG interest in post war RFX grenades, be it the supposed HE solid bottom bodies, or now the supposed "solid bottom "low order" bodies, (cast iron?) or the well known real RFX M21's with a hole and cork. All very interesting, but really has nothing to do with WW2, and not my cup of tea.

These post war RFX grenades may be very good to have in a collection as Miguel Grenademan2005 has mentioned, to "complete the series" of the famous "pineapple grenades" but I have not done so, and will not.

I feel confident enough to say from what I know, have seen, and have learned, there were no RFX of any kind or type used in the U.S. Military pre Sept. 1945 "during" WW2.

I will of course change my opinion, retract my statements, and be very humbled if positive proof is found to prove otherwise. Good luck to all finding this elusive RFX information. I look forward to being humbled, and maybe even seeing a photo of a full wooden crate of twenty-five RFX solid bottom HE grenades dated before Sept.1945. Maybe even some of these "low order" RFX grenades in a WW2 dated can or crate.

 

[dano1917]

Steve, What is your opinion on when the "RFX" MKII practice was first made? Just curious on this one..Regards....Dano

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Steve, What is your opinion on when the "RFX" MKII practice was first made? Just curious on this one..Regards....Dano

Hi Dano, I really think the grenade you are referring to as a MkII practice might really be properly called at this time in US Military nomenclature as a "M21" practice hand grenade, but they might have still called them MkII also.

I personally think the first RFX M21's or MkII as you call them were first made sometime between the end of WW2-1945, and 1950-51 like you think too :nerd:

 

[Grenademan2005]

I would like to say that I am a WW2 collector firstly, and everyone who reads any of my statements or opinions that I have said about the RFX grenades lately, my statements pertain to supposed RFX grenades made before Sept. 1945.

Of course I like our beloved "pineapple" grenades, and have a bit of interest in the history of them until they were phased out of service, but really have no BIG interest in post war RFX grenades, be it the supposed HE solid bottom bodies, or now the supposed "solid bottom "low order" bodies, (cast iron?) or the well known real RFX M21's with a hole and cork. All very interesting, but really has nothing to do with WW2, and not my cup of tea.

These post war RFX grenades may be very good to have in a collection as Miguel Grenademan2005 has mentioned, to "complete the series" of the famous "pineapple grenades" but I have not done so, and will not.

I feel confident enough to say from what I know, have seen, and have learned, there were no RFX of any kind or type used in the U.S. Military pre Sept. 1945 "during" WW2.

I will of course change my opinion, retract my statements, and be very humbled if positive proof is found to prove otherwise. Good luck to all finding this elusive RFX information. I look forward to being humbled, and maybe even seeing a photo of a full wooden crate of twenty-five RFX solid bottom HE grenades dated before Sept.1945. Maybe even some of these "low order" RFX grenades in a WW2 dated can or crate.

Amen :five:.

 

[Fragman]

Now I know commercial books are renown for using dodgy photo's, but thought this one from Brassey's was worth adding. Oh yeah, Merry Christmas:bigsmile:

 

[Grenademan2005]

HAHAHAHA, I love this site. :elefant:

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Rfx, rfx, rfx, rfx!!!!!

:banghead: :hmmmm: :shot: :laugh:

 

[Grenademan2005]

Can I see blue spots under the green? You forgot a pic of the base. Or not? That M10 spoon is not right with that fuze.... on what are you playing, Steve?

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Can I see blue spots under the green? You forgot a pic of the base. Or not? That M10 spoon is not right with that fuze.... on what are you playing, Steve?

:laugh: No,there is no blue on this one. Good eye with fuze though.
It's a fantasy grenade I painted to display in the projector so I did not scratch up the paint on a real grenade. These are the type of RFX grenades maybe people see in bad, incomplete or fuzzy pictures, and maybe this causes a lot of confusion and debates, especially if like I did, the bottom is not shown.

That projector is post Korean war, I only collect WW2 so really don't know why I even bought that one, maybe because it was in good shape. I'll probably sell or trade it sometime.

 

[Grenademan2005]

Ok, yes, I also had two of those projectors, I sold them long time ago with some other post WWII grenades. What do you think about the Fragman picture?

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Ok, yes, I also had two of those projectors, I sold them long time ago with some other post WWII grenades. What do you think about the Fragman picture?

I looked at Fragman's pic, and this is what I see. (You'll only need a medium sized Margarrrittttaaa to read this one Miguel) :dong:

1. a black & white pic of what looks like a green with yellow stripe MkII marked RFX .

2. Bottom is not shown

3. fuze is WW2 type with the "step or protrusions" on the striker pivot pin

4. There is no telling where or who this grenade and picture originally came from

5. the body looks different than most RFX pineapples and the real M21's
the body shape looks more like Eodtek's RFX (that looks on inside to be made of cast iron)

6. the fuze base and neck size are very different sizes just like Eodtek's grenade (Eodtek's is cast iron? he has not answered yet if this is correct, and if in fact it is cast iron, hopefully he will answer this)

7. If RFX had a contract with US Gov. and really did make green with yellow stripe HE solid bottom grenades, where are they all? Are they so rare to see because they were "ALL" used up?....Not one G.I kept one for souvenier? None were stolen or pilfered and got into collector market?......or maybe they only made 500 of them like the Singer 1911A1 .45's and were all used???

8. So again I will conclude, I do not think any RFX were used by the US military prior to Sept 1945. Maybe they made some post war, but I've never seen one so far. I really have no interest in the post war pineapples, but I hope that the people who are interested and collect them, do find all the info, minutes reports, Gov.contracts etc. It will be good for the collector community to know all this.

Here's photos of my "genuine fake" RFX that I changed to B&W-sepia tone with a M10A3 just sitting in the hole (threads on body are not 9/16) It looks pretty convincing to someone not completely familiar with US pineapple grenades. I maybe think that because of all the copies that have been made, many photos like these, and also people over the years altering RFX bodies, welding and filling the holes, painting and aging etc. has caused a lot of confusion about what is what with these RFX grenades.

 

[Fragman]

Hi. When was the M21 first introduced? Cheers

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Hi. When was the M21 first introduced? Cheers

Great photo Fragman!!!

ATTN: To everyone who thinks I talk a lot and make long posts.....you are absolutely correct. The many small details and long history of certain issues that I speak about, and try to explain to my fellow grenade collectors, CANNOT be said in one short sentence or paragraph. So grab a pack of smokes, some coffee, beer, cocktail, or beverage or snack or whatever you need, and just enjoy the ride. It's all good. :tinysmile_tongue_t:

Again...Great photo Fragman!!!, Thank you for showing this picture. That's a very rare item, especially marked M21, I want it!!! :cry: Is this canister and packet yours? I commented on one of these cans and packets before in one of the seems like 500 threads about M21's, RFX's and MkII practice grenades that have been made last 6 months

OK, first I'll answer your question so you don't have to read my "long post" ....unless you have interest in the "M21". The M21 was first introduced to the best of my knowledge sometime between 1941 and 1944, and was spoke about recently (see second thread link below) I personally think they were first designated as "M21 practice hand grenade" most probably sometime in 42 or 1943 is my thoughts.
This is just my educated guess based on my two cans that have loading dates of 8-44, and the other only known/seen M21 can (at least by me) that is dated 12-44, and was revised in some way in 5-44.
So if that M21 can says "revised" in May of 44 (5-44) then I think most probably the blue training grenades were being called "M21's" by the US Gov. by at least late 1943.

Frank, Eodtek, is trying to find definitive Gov. paperwork- minutes reports on this subject, and sure hope he or somebody finally finds this info to put this issue to bed finally.

Many here had thought the M21 was strictly a post war grenade until I showed the first one I found about a year and a half ago....and then just a few months ago I bought the second M21 I have from the same person I got the first one from. They both have the same 8-44 dated cans as you can see in pics below.

I've always thought that all the WW2 blue practice grenades came fuzed sealed in their M41 cans, But Not loaded with the black powder packet and no corks installed. And that the practice grenades were shipped with 24 grenades to a wooden crate, not 25 like regular HE grenades.

The reason only 24 grenades to a wood crate, instead of 25, is what you have just shown a photo of my friend Fragman.....A M41 type can that contained the corks, and small cloth black powder packets for the 24 practice grenades. This can of corks and powder charges went in the 25th space of the standard wooden grenade crate. Then the black powder charge and cork were supposed to be installed just before use at the training range. I have seen and handled just one of these cans before that was in a friends advanced pineapple collection. They are very rare to find. Although I do not remember now if the cannister I examined said M21 on it like the can you have shown. :tinysmile_angry_t:

Here is one more issue that I think may be partly answered by what you have shown......I have always thought that the yellow-brownish varnish that was used to seal the corks on the bottom or practice grenades, and that is seen all over the bottoms of some blue grenades is a post war procedure. I do not think the corks were sealed with varnish on practice grenades "during" WW2 (pre-Sept 1945). Although they could very well have been done like that in very late war (1945) period

Frank "Eodtek" is also helping look for the answer to this question of the varnish which I made a separate thread about and asked this about a month ago. No one yet has been able to answer this question.
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/question-u-s-t76617.html?t=76617


Here are a couple threads that have talked about M21's and MkII practice if you or anyone else is interested. There are even more threads, and when I find them, I might add them here to have all of them in one place. In fact I might start a separate thread dedicated to this issue of the M21.

I already made a "M21 Grenades" thread showing my two examples, and then others make new threads about the same thing, then I will answer, then others will answer, and then there is info and posts all over the place in many different threads. It seems my thread or a another thread would have to be I think called a "sticky post or tagged" by a moderator for everyone to stay on track and have definitive info in just one place or thread??

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/wwii-m21-practice-t75819.html?t=75819

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/us-mk-ii-t76656.html?t=76656

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/question-u-s-t76617.html?t=76617

 

[Grenademan2005]

:shot:..............

 

[Kilroy was Here]

:shot:..............

:laugh:


:tomato: :damnmate:

 

[Fragman]

Hi Steve, Thanks for sharing your photos and putting the effort into pinpointing when the M21 was introduced. Unfortunately the photo of the container and corks was just one I grabbed from an on-line auction. Cheers

 

[Grenademan2005]

That set is one of a kind.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Hi Steve, Thanks for sharing your photo’s and putting the effort into pinpointing when the M21 was introduced. Unfortunately the photo of the container and corks was just one I grabbed from an on-line auction. Cheers

Thank you very much. It's something that needs to be pinpointed for the collector community, historians, future collectors etc.

Ahhh, OK, I see. This item you showed would have been very nice to go with my two M21's. Was this a recent auction, and do you remember how much did it sell for? Do you mind telling me what auction website? You can PM me this if you wish to answer that way.

Thanks again for posting this photo, it's a valuable key to the time line trying to be figured out. Another thing....I think it's very interesting that the "revision date" is the same 5-24-44, as on the M21 can that Frank "Eodtek" showed. And of course, I'd like to know exactly what this revision was. haha!