47mm 2-1/2 Pdr rounds

[fert]

ciao
the shape is very similar, but if was a common maker I don't know
austrian made italian ammunition in the pre-war period, I have a shell case for italian 70/15 mod 1902 cannon made by WEISS in 1911, so your theory could be right. but I have no source that confirm.

austrian it's marked with the crown as you can see.
this crown is stencilled in many small caliber shell case too


the fuze it's an austrian BZ M96k

@hazord I'm interested in your hungarian round, could you make a close up of case head stamps shell and fuze please? many thanks

kind regards

 

[Gspragge]

I didn't know

the Italians bought Austrian made material pre war, but then no reason not to. I suspect both rounds Austrian made, the lower band style is too much identical and does not appear elsewhere. The same thing with out the groove might be Italian copy in 37mm or just simplified by the same maker - if there is identical identified Austrian version ?

 

[Falcon]

Did the 47mm Rounds made in the UK by EOC ever reach Japan? The amount that seem to be around in the UK suggests alot of them didn't.

 

[Gspragge]

Well one did ~

This sold on Gunbroker a while back. It appears to have a plug. I don't think it is EOC made (though I can't be 100% sure), Hotchkiss Paris or Japanese? Maybe somebody will reconize the markings on the plug. It was perhaps fired in WW2. It was with a WW2 Japanese 47mm case for something else.
I added my 37mm images, while not part of the 47mm discussion maybe someone will know something more

 

[Gspragge]

At Tsingt Tau in 1914

The Japanese captured some German 1pdr. Maxims. There a appear to be four of them shown here. One destroyed by a charge in position, one a shown in position. two on full field mounts. Other than testing them I have no idea wether the Japanese put these into service at all. The ammunition would be the standard German Marine issue PD common shell and canister.
But I digress from the 47mm topic ~

 

[HAZORD]

I will return to the 47mm subject with this question. Having seen crossover examples in 37mm where projectiles normally associated with the short 1 Pdr cases are also loaded in the longer cases, what can be said about the 47mm projectiles being appropriate for both the 2-1/2 Pdr and the 3 Pdr cases? I have seen 3 Pdrs used by a large number of countries, but I haven't seen a Jap 3 Pdr yet.

 

[Gspragge]

The Hotchkiss 47mm

For the revolving gun is a shorter projectile than the one in the Hi Velocity 3Pdr. or 47mm rounds. There seems to be no reason they wouldn't work, but I guess with the stronger charge advantage was taken to use a bigger projectile for a better result. Also being breech loaded there is no limitation on projectile length as there is in the RC feed.

 

[ogreve]

Hi guys,

I've just won-by-auction the round shown in the three attached pictures. The reason for going after another Japanese 47mm is that this round is equipped with a projectile that doesn't have the wide corrugated driving band!

Essentially, this is the same type of projectile as the leftmost one shown in Hazord's original post in this thread, as well as the projectile shown in the thread http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/japanese-47-x-t44719.html?t=44719

Now, in all of my documentation on the 47x130R ammo, as well as the 47x285R ammo, I cannot find any reference to this type of projectile. The shown types all look very different. Out of the shown types, the Hotchkiss type looks like a closer match than the 47x285R type.

I didn't want the auction to slip away from me, so before having received an answer to my question whether the projectile has markings on it, I ended the auction.

Can somebody (Hazord????) tell me something more about this type of projectile?

Cheers!
Olafo

 

[HAZORD]

At present, I can't say anything about it. I have some books to go through to research it, and it has been suggested that I get Ken Elks' books, but I don't know where to buy them.

Maybe if someone else has copies of them, they could check those references for you, and I will go through what I have.

Sorry I couldn't offer more.

 

[ogreve]

Hi Hazord,

I bought Ken's book the day he released it (Sept. 25th, 2009), I can give you his e-mail address off-list for ordering it. He sold them for 35 Euros at the latest ECRA fair, over here in The Netherlands.
However... the books go up until (inclusive) 40mm, so you will not find this one in it. Ken may know the answers those, he's very friendly and very knowledgeable. He's not so prompt in replying e-mails, but persistence pays off...

BTW: I consider Ken's books to be just about the finest on Japanese ammo. A definite recommended work for anyone interested in this field!

Also, at this very moment I'm uploading my not-copyrighted documentation on Japanese ammo; a few hundred MBs. I will start a new post about it.

Cheers!
Olafo

 

[waffenamt]

Hi guys,

I've just won-by-auction the round shown in the three attached pictures. The reason for going after another Japanese 47mm is that this round is equipped with a projectile that doesn't have the wide corrugated driving band!

Essentially, this is the same type of projectile as the leftmost one shown in Hazord's original post in this thread, as well as the projectile shown in the thread http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/japanese-47-x-t44719.html?t=44719

Now, in all of my documentation on the 47x130R ammo, as well as the 47x285R ammo, I cannot find any reference to this type of projectile. The shown types all look very different. Out of the shown types, the Hotchkiss type looks like a closer match than the 47x285R type.

I didn't want the auction to slip away from me, so before having received an answer to my question whether the projectile has markings on it, I ended the auction.

Can somebody (Hazord????) tell me something more about this type of projectile?

Cheers!
Olafo

Hi Olaf,
These aren't bad pictures at all!,the seller must be a good photographer!
Seriously,thank you for the purchase and i will upload some detailed pics for you here later today.

best

waff

 

[Gspragge]

It is made with the Nordenfeld Band

A more modern design, used on British made 1Pr. 3Pr. & 6Pr. made by Maxim Nordenfelt then Vikers Sons & Maxim. Also Elswick, who I think made this, but you will have to see what marks are on it. The High velocity 47mm for the long cases will have a longer body shape, there is one on SA.

 

[2pounder]

47mm

Just to add more variations I have a short 47mm common pointed proj. that came in a 21/2pr type case and the shell has an anchor stamped in the copper driving band and in two other places feint Japanese characters but the case does not appear to have any Japanese on it only E in a circle in two places and what looks like an X. I also have another similar case with only one E in a circle, C and F again no Japanese. There is also a version of the 47mm shell with a wide smooth brass driving band but nose fuzed with a small French 1pr type fuze. 2pr

 

[waffenamt]

...and as promised,here are a couple more shots..

cheers

waff

 

[Gspragge]

Can you post an image of this

So far these are British made projectiles, for it seems a Japanese contract or two. The Hotchkiss Band pattern would be made under licence. The version with the Nordenfelt band might not be a licenced product.

It seems to me the actual Hotchkiss Paris made versions in base fuse and PD are much harder to find although they were sold to any one any where.

These all have a short projectile and case as they are made for the revolving gun or single shot gun mounted on deck or field mount..

 

[2pounder]

help

Gspragge, Sorry you're dealing with a begginer here, Hotchkiss and Nordenfelt bands??? which are which? there's the rippled wide brass, smooth wide brass and narrow copper. Please confirm which are the British made type as the inert BD and PD ones I have have no markings on at all. Thanks. 2pr

 

[Gspragge]

This should sort it out

I hope, if not Ill give it another go.

I have added the Hotchkiss patent for the band. Basically it is a smooth thin brass metal band placed over raised ribs formed on the projectile. When the round is fired the ennitial gas pressure forces the metal down between the metal ribs, before the round moves forward (this works on the relatively low velocity 1Pr. rounds) which lessens the contact area. On the smooth 1Pr. bands the effect on firing is that the band takes the basic shape of the 47mm band before it travels down the bore. I guess this didn't work so well on the 47mm and higher velocity rounds as this shape is preformed. It seems to be an over engineered design compared to the simple very narrow bands that worked quite well every where later.

 

[HAZORD]

Thanks Gordon!

 

[2pounder]

bands

Thanks Gordon a lot, thought the copper ones were Nordenfeldt but the explanation on the brass bands was most helpful. Attached photos of my 47mm 21/2pr size plus a 5.3cm all empty and inert. Suspect no.69 has wrong shell as it is a Nord. style case, (hay ho two more things to get along with the rocking horse manure).

 

[pzgr40]

That is one very nice collection of 47mm shells. Very interesting. Thanks for posting.