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47mm Bhler shell
- Thread starter Mannlicher
- Start date
47mm M35 Austrian Wooden Dummy Round
Here is something interesting that turned up in the US. I know from its 235mm case length and ENZ mark that it is Austrian made. The question is this a factory made training round? On one hand it does not seem as robust as other wooden training rounds with its composite material driving band. However, the projectile is in the correct shape for an Austrian AP, and it does not come out. It spins freely, but will not come out, so it is being held by some central shaft. The projectile has green paint with faint white letters on it. It also does not appear to have a normal primer; it strikes me as a case made for a dummy round. The wooden projectile as a lot of wear as if it was well used in service. I am eager for your opinions.
Here is something interesting that turned up in the US. I know from its 235mm case length and ENZ mark that it is Austrian made. The question is this a factory made training round? On one hand it does not seem as robust as other wooden training rounds with its composite material driving band. However, the projectile is in the correct shape for an Austrian AP, and it does not come out. It spins freely, but will not come out, so it is being held by some central shaft. The projectile has green paint with faint white letters on it. It also does not appear to have a normal primer; it strikes me as a case made for a dummy round. The wooden projectile as a lot of wear as if it was well used in service. I am eager for your opinions.
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greif
Well-Known Member
I think it is factory made. I have a similar one in my collection. Because of it’s painting, case lengte and headstamp, I think mine was made for the Dutch army, but I have No documentation on this cartridge. Because it is lightweight I don’t know whether it is a drill round or a display round.
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Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have one which looks like that. I also have a Swiss case with one of the long HE-type practice shells. And an Italian case which would love to be mated with one of the pointed APC projectiles :tinysmile_fatgrin_t
Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
So, we have:
Switzerland (and Finland) 184.5 mm
Italy (and Finland) 195 mm
Netherlands 227 mm (also Italian APHE?)
Austria 235 mm
According to Wiki, these guns were also used by China, Romania, Estonia and Latvia. Anyone know the case lengths?
Switzerland (and Finland) 184.5 mm
Italy (and Finland) 195 mm
Netherlands 227 mm (also Italian APHE?)
Austria 235 mm
According to Wiki, these guns were also used by China, Romania, Estonia and Latvia. Anyone know the case lengths?
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H
Hoeksel
Guest
212 is the length for Latvia
Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
My three examples: Dutch at the top, then Italian case, then Swiss dummy HE.
Headstamps of the three rounds (same order)
Headstamps of the three rounds (same order)
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Again, severely late to the party, but I can confirm this is a 47mm Schneider Concordia (the marking "47-5A" is specific to this gun and the fact it's in the 0-10 range means this is classified as an infantry support gun rather than an AT one) casing and that the 342mm lenght is correct.
Here's mine:
And here it is with some of it's brethren - 37mm Škoda, 47mm APX mle.37 and 47mm SA35.
Projectiles are 3d printed replicas made and painted by me.
The Romanian AP projectile is virtually identical to the Czech 47mm shell and would have probably had some inscriptions in either black or red ink, but so far I haven't been able to find any surviving examples or any relevant manual.
The HE projectile for this gun however is unique and has the driving band very low on the body, like that of the Swiss Bohler. Here are some with original paint belonging to Irod7:
Besides these, there is also a presumably later version with the rotating band further up the body and a boat tail identical to that of the AP shell.
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Hello,
This APHE shell is similar to Italian 47mm APBC 47/32 m39 (the cap is missing).
Yellow paint is not italian and markings are similar to romanian markings (Nr 7...).
As Romanian used Breda and Bohler 47mm guns, could it be a romanian shell ?
Regards
Found in Romania :
This APHE shell is similar to Italian 47mm APBC 47/32 m39 (the cap is missing).
Yellow paint is not italian and markings are similar to romanian markings (Nr 7...).
As Romanian used Breda and Bohler 47mm guns, could it be a romanian shell ?
Regards
Found in Romania :
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you for the pictures!
Yes, those are absolutely Romanian markings.
Unfortunately can't read the shell number, but should be Nr.1
Weight should be 1 500 (1,5 kg)
T.I. (Tun Infanterie - Infantry support gun) 47mm Nr.7 means Breda.
E1 means Trinitrotoluene and the rest is lot number and year.
This is the second Romanian Breda AP shell I see that's yellow - the other one is the one you posted and here's another picture of it.
From that I'm going to assume the centring ring is left bare metal and the cap is also yellow.
Yes, those are absolutely Romanian markings.
Unfortunately can't read the shell number, but should be Nr.1
Weight should be 1 500 (1,5 kg)
T.I. (Tun Infanterie - Infantry support gun) 47mm Nr.7 means Breda.
E1 means Trinitrotoluene and the rest is lot number and year.
This is the second Romanian Breda AP shell I see that's yellow - the other one is the one you posted and here's another picture of it.
From that I'm going to assume the centring ring is left bare metal and the cap is also yellow.
Hello @MINENAZ,
Yes, as @wingsofwrath explained already, your shell is for the Breda gun as indicated by the code for the corresponding gun (Nr. 7) In the Romanian artillery system used during ww2.
Your shell seems to be missing its ballistic cap, but i think what we are looking at is an Italian 47/32 with Romanian markings.
Please note that in the Romanian marking and painting system used during ww2, the yellow body is an indication of a HE round. This is the only exception where we have an APHE shell that is painted yellow, and it makes me wonder why. All other APHE that we have clear evidence of (47mm Schneider-Concordia, 75mm) are left unpainted or with just the cap painted. The reason why this shell is painted yellow is unclear to me, feel free to come up with ideas.
Here are more photos of the said shell (given to the EOD as per legal obligations, unfortunately) :
Yes, as @wingsofwrath explained already, your shell is for the Breda gun as indicated by the code for the corresponding gun (Nr. 7) In the Romanian artillery system used during ww2.
Your shell seems to be missing its ballistic cap, but i think what we are looking at is an Italian 47/32 with Romanian markings.
Please note that in the Romanian marking and painting system used during ww2, the yellow body is an indication of a HE round. This is the only exception where we have an APHE shell that is painted yellow, and it makes me wonder why. All other APHE that we have clear evidence of (47mm Schneider-Concordia, 75mm) are left unpainted or with just the cap painted. The reason why this shell is painted yellow is unclear to me, feel free to come up with ideas.
Here are more photos of the said shell (given to the EOD as per legal obligations, unfortunately) :
greif
Well-Known Member
Many years ago this 4,7 cm HE cartridge was offered for sale on the internet.
On the cartridge case it is marked in red paint:
4,7 cm I.K. 35/36 (ö) (I.K. = Infanterie Kanone)
4,7 cm Pak (ö).
So, manufactured for the Austrian gun, but shell and fuze nomenclature unknown to me.
And also had I never seen before a Böhler case with a German acceptance stamp.
On the cartridge case it is marked in red paint:
4,7 cm I.K. 35/36 (ö) (I.K. = Infanterie Kanone)
4,7 cm Pak (ö).
So, manufactured for the Austrian gun, but shell and fuze nomenclature unknown to me.
And also had I never seen before a Böhler case with a German acceptance stamp.
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wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
I've been trawling through Russian forums looking for ground found Böhler shells with Romanian markings, and while only some interesting Romanian cartridge cases have popped up, I've also stumbled into a bit of a mystery, because there are multiple Böhler 47mm APHE shells being dug up in Russia with British style markings.
As far as I can tell, these correspond to the Latvian case lenght of 212mm, the shell looks identical to the Austrian/Romanian/Dutch type with the grooved rotating band (as opposed to the solid Italian and Latvian one), but the fuze itself is different from other Böhler shells I've seen. I've also not been able to find any pictures with the headstamps of the cartridge cases.
My guess would be these are UK manufactured ammunition for Ex-Latvian guns used by the Soviets, but I have no proof of it.
Does anybody here know anything more about this?
As far as I can tell, these correspond to the Latvian case lenght of 212mm, the shell looks identical to the Austrian/Romanian/Dutch type with the grooved rotating band (as opposed to the solid Italian and Latvian one), but the fuze itself is different from other Böhler shells I've seen. I've also not been able to find any pictures with the headstamps of the cartridge cases.
My guess would be these are UK manufactured ammunition for Ex-Latvian guns used by the Soviets, but I have no proof of it.
Does anybody here know anything more about this?
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wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Speaking of these, this drawing has just popped up from a random Italian archive and reproduced on tanks-encyclopedia, showing the Breda cartridges and shells in Romanian markings, thus confirming my earlier guess of what the complete markings would have been:
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Hello,
I have other pics about round you posted, popped up in other forum in 2016. ENZ made
regards
Its interesting to see British ammunition colours and markings on foreign projectiles. Possibly Vickers, the projectile would be stamped with one of their factory marks if they made it. They had the Terni connection too? The base fuze would likely be made by them as well. I assume they were destroyed? Would be great to see any stamps.
Hello,
Vickers ceased the joint venture in 1922. Base fuze it's made in 1940 by ENZ (Austria)
Some docs shows Italian firm SMI made cases for Latvia in 1937. As for Romania, 47x195 and Hungarian 37x250 there was a joint venture from SMI, BPD and other italian factories for production of export ammunition.
I have no data about color code used except for the yellow romanian shell.
all the best