pzgr40
Well-Known Member
According to the proposed directive EU 91/477 from brussels, soon all small arms bullets with special purpose projectiles (armour piercing, incendiary, hollow point), as wel as magazines for over 20 rounds and ammo belts will be forbidden. This goes as far as to confiscate these items and even terminate existing licences.
The Dutch ammunition collectors club (NVBMB) has allready send a letter of protest to the European members of parlaiment, regarding this newest nonsense , according to which collectors are the suppliers of criminals.....................
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In response to the proposed changes of the EU directive 91/477 I would like to respond as a representative of the ammunition collectors in the EU and the Netherlands and Belgium in particular.
In regards to: ‘(5) Since collectors have been identified as a possible source of traffic of firearms, they should
be covered by this Directive.’
I would like to strongly oppose to this unfounded statement. In the past we have participated in government sponsored research into the flow of legal firearms and ammunition into the illegal marketplace. This research proves that there is no flow of legal arms and ammunition other than through theft.
This statement links the law-abiding collectors to criminality and terrorism. This effects myself and all collectors on a legal and emotional level, akin to defamation.
In regards to: ‘(9 Some semi-automatic firearms can easily be converted to automatic firearms, thus posing a
threat to security. Even in the absence of such conversion (…) certain semi-automatic firearms
may be very dangerous when their capacity regarding the number of rounds is high.
Therefore, semi-automatic firearms with a fixed loading device allowing to fire a high
number of rounds, as well as semi-automatic firearm in combination with a removable
loading device with a high number of rounds should be prohibited for civilian use. Such
loading devices, such as fixed or detachable magazines, as well as feeding belts, should also
be prohibited. When individuals are found to be in the possession of such loading devices
these should be seized, as well as any semi-automatic centre fire firearms to which these
could be fitted, even if the possession of these firearms was authorised. These individuals
should also be deprived from their authorisation.’
And ‘3. An authorisation to acquire and an authorisation to possess a firearm classified
in category B of Annex 1 shall be withdrawn if the person who was granted the
authorisation is found to be in the possession of a loading device which can hold
more than 20 rounds and is apt to be fitted to a short centre fire semi-automatic
firearm or of a loading device which can hold more than 10 rounds and is apt to
be fitted to a long centre fire semi-automatic firearm.’
I would like to point out that there is no link between firearm related crime and the legal possession of larger capacity magazines or feeding belts. Taking away to legal possession of magazines or feeding belts from ammunition collectors has no effect on illegal firearms use. The said magazines will remain in illegal hands and will be used in crime and terrorist acts. The only effect this has is a significant loss of cultural and historical heritage from the hands of dedicated collectors. In general the ammunition collectors in the EU also collect loading devices such as clips, magazines and feeding belts. This has always been legal because of the very low risk this poses to society in general. A licensed owner of firearms and ammunition is shown through various scientific research to be law abiding and less likely to have a violent nature. The furthermore proposed extreme repercussion of being found to own a previously legal loading device is without precedence and in violation with the norms of proportionality and subsequence which are key in all actions by and from a government.
In regards to: article 5 ‘1k. For the purposes of this Directive, "collector" means any legal or natural person dedicated to the gathering and conservation of firearms and associated artefacts31, and recognised as such by a Member State.’
I would like to propose the addition of ‘firearms, ammunition and associated artefacts’.
In regards to: article 6 ‘3b. Member States may authorise collectors to acquire and possess firearms, essential components thereof and ammunition from category B subject to strict conditions on security.’
I would like to point that this proposal does not take into account the effects to the current collections of great cultural and historic value, let alone the monetary value. Our collectors have obtained through the decades a large number of collections which surpass those in the hands of museums and the ammunition manufacturers of Europe. In fact many of the ammunition collections of museums and the manufacturers have gone to private collectors. The damage of this proposal cannot be measured at this moment but is unimaginably large.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I myself have also written a letter to all members of the European parlaiment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir / Madam,
This letter concerns the new European Legislation 91/477 and its consequences for legal collectors of weapons and ammunition.
Since 1975 the Netherlands has a legislation with a permit system that allows private ownership of weapons and ammunition for collectors which are interested in the technical and historical aspects of weapons and ammunition, as well as preserving cultural, historical and industrial heritage.
In 2004 the legislation was adjusted, for small calibre ammunition one needed a permit, for large calibre (inert) military ammunition one needs an exemption.
I am a collector of –inert- large calibre ammunition, as well as rifle and pistol ammunition, having both a permit and an exemption.
Collecting of ammunition in the Netherlands is subject to many restrictions;
-The collector must show he/she has a genuine technical or historical interest in ammunition, and must be a member of the ECRA (European cartridge Research Association) , either it’s Dutch subsection the NVBMB.
-The collector must follow a course at the NVBMB in ammunition technics, as well as aspects of law, and is only allowed to obtain a government issued licence if he/she passes the exams with satisfactory results. The collector also has to pass a balloting time of six months.
-The collector has to be over 18 years of age, is to have a completely clean criminal record, and has to be “in good mental state”.
-The licence or exemption can be revoked any time without warning, when any doubt appears about the reason for collecting, suspected criminal contacts, either doubt about the mental state of the collector.
This Dutch legislation and exemption system has allowed a hobby that before 1975 was illegally practiced in strict secrecy in sheds in the backs of gardens – without the possibility of any government control-, to be legally practiced after obtaining a licence or exemption, allowing the government to take full control. In the Netherlands this is done by annual –unannounced- house visits by the fire arms officers of the local police force, checking if all ammo is registered according to government regulations, and if the collector does not exceed permit or exemption conditions. All legal collectors are known by the Dutch government!
I want to point out that since 1975 many publications have been made by Dutch (and also European) collectors which are to be considered the information sources and reference for law enforcement, army, and any institution or company that needs info about weapons and / or ammunition. Collecting of ammunition by private persons can therefore be considered as the preservation of cultural, historical and industrial heritage.
In reports to European governments it is wrongly suggested that there are links between licenced collectors and criminals. This is absolutely unfounded and complete nonsense!! I collect for 33 years, and in all this time I have never seen or heard anything about contacts between legal collectors and criminals, in fact I am fully convinced that any legal collector I know will instantaneously inform the proper authorities if any criminal activity is suspected. This, because our position as legal collectors is always unstable due to these false and unfounded allegations. In this matter, the licencing system has created a sharp and clear division between legal –law abiding – collectors, and those whom have chosen the path of criminal behaviour.
Research has also shown that there is hardly any danger in collecting rifle or pistol cartridges in loaded condition, a bottle of lighter fluid in a kitchen cupboard has a much larger danger potential. Large calibre ammunition (artillery shells, mines, missiles) in a collectable condition of course are fully inert and do not contain any energetic materials, the only danger these ordnance remnants pose is being dropped on one’s foot.
According to the new proposals of the EU, small calibre ammunition with armour piercing, incendiary or expanding bullet, cartridge belts , and Magazines for –automatic-rifles will be forbidden. The consequence of this will be that unique historical collections will be broken up and destroyed, without any positive contribution to the decrease of criminality or terrorism.
So, where do criminals and terrorists obtain their weapons and ammunition? The first source :
-The Albanian opening of the depots in 1997 (Albanian: Hapja e depove) was the opening of weapons depots in the north, for protection against the violence of the south. The decision was taken by President Berisha. When southern Albanian bases were looted, it was estimated that, on average, every male from the age of ten upwards possessed at least one firearm and ample ammunition. In order to protect the civilians in north and central Albania, the government allowed civilians to arm themselves from government arms depots. During the rebellion 656,000 weapons of various types, along with 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition, 3.5 million hand grenades and one million land mines, were looted from army depots.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_civil_war_of_1997
-The Yugoslav wars in the 90’s of the last century, where more than 250.000 weapons + ammunition disappeared, as well as rocket launchers and hand grenades.
As one can see, a criminal or terrorist has no interest in trying to obtain ammunition from a licensed collector, whom only possesses items in small amounts for study purposes, while it is easily possible for a criminal or terrorist to obtain these goods anonymously on the black market in large amounts.
Except for that, terrorists and/or criminals will not abide the laws as descent people in descent societies have decided upon, so any further restrictions will only hurt licensed legal collectors.
I hereby want to petition you not to further restrict the European legislation concerning the collecting of weapons and ammunition, and not send legal collecting -by descent people- back into illegality, breaking up irreplaceable collections of historical, cultural and industrial heritage –often worth a small fortune- , but to consider an European permit and exemption system, based upon the Dutch system, under the epigraph ‘to control is better than to prohibit’
Thank you in advance
Yours sincerely,
D.J. Harms
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I think it's becomming time we make ourselves heard again, before it's too late and our hobby is gone.
These new regulations would simply eliminate the collectors of small arms ammo, magazines and belts, and that's only for a starter. In a few years one will not even be allowed to own a fired shellcase cut down to an ashtray if the EU has it's way.
SO, WRITE A LETTER OF PROTEST!!!!.
One can use the above letters as a template of what can be written, but make shure to keep it to the point, polite, and non emotional.
Below here , a Word list is added with all the adresses of members of the European parlaiment. Send the mails in batches of maximum 25 , or the e mail server will get stuck. Do not sens to all E mailadresses at once , as the server in Brussels will hink it's spam and throw your message out.
But DO write, or we're finished.
Regards, DJ Harms
The Dutch ammunition collectors club (NVBMB) has allready send a letter of protest to the European members of parlaiment, regarding this newest nonsense , according to which collectors are the suppliers of criminals.....................
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In response to the proposed changes of the EU directive 91/477 I would like to respond as a representative of the ammunition collectors in the EU and the Netherlands and Belgium in particular.
In regards to: ‘(5) Since collectors have been identified as a possible source of traffic of firearms, they should
be covered by this Directive.’
I would like to strongly oppose to this unfounded statement. In the past we have participated in government sponsored research into the flow of legal firearms and ammunition into the illegal marketplace. This research proves that there is no flow of legal arms and ammunition other than through theft.
This statement links the law-abiding collectors to criminality and terrorism. This effects myself and all collectors on a legal and emotional level, akin to defamation.
In regards to: ‘(9 Some semi-automatic firearms can easily be converted to automatic firearms, thus posing a
threat to security. Even in the absence of such conversion (…) certain semi-automatic firearms
may be very dangerous when their capacity regarding the number of rounds is high.
Therefore, semi-automatic firearms with a fixed loading device allowing to fire a high
number of rounds, as well as semi-automatic firearm in combination with a removable
loading device with a high number of rounds should be prohibited for civilian use. Such
loading devices, such as fixed or detachable magazines, as well as feeding belts, should also
be prohibited. When individuals are found to be in the possession of such loading devices
these should be seized, as well as any semi-automatic centre fire firearms to which these
could be fitted, even if the possession of these firearms was authorised. These individuals
should also be deprived from their authorisation.’
And ‘3. An authorisation to acquire and an authorisation to possess a firearm classified
in category B of Annex 1 shall be withdrawn if the person who was granted the
authorisation is found to be in the possession of a loading device which can hold
more than 20 rounds and is apt to be fitted to a short centre fire semi-automatic
firearm or of a loading device which can hold more than 10 rounds and is apt to
be fitted to a long centre fire semi-automatic firearm.’
I would like to point out that there is no link between firearm related crime and the legal possession of larger capacity magazines or feeding belts. Taking away to legal possession of magazines or feeding belts from ammunition collectors has no effect on illegal firearms use. The said magazines will remain in illegal hands and will be used in crime and terrorist acts. The only effect this has is a significant loss of cultural and historical heritage from the hands of dedicated collectors. In general the ammunition collectors in the EU also collect loading devices such as clips, magazines and feeding belts. This has always been legal because of the very low risk this poses to society in general. A licensed owner of firearms and ammunition is shown through various scientific research to be law abiding and less likely to have a violent nature. The furthermore proposed extreme repercussion of being found to own a previously legal loading device is without precedence and in violation with the norms of proportionality and subsequence which are key in all actions by and from a government.
In regards to: article 5 ‘1k. For the purposes of this Directive, "collector" means any legal or natural person dedicated to the gathering and conservation of firearms and associated artefacts31, and recognised as such by a Member State.’
I would like to propose the addition of ‘firearms, ammunition and associated artefacts’.
In regards to: article 6 ‘3b. Member States may authorise collectors to acquire and possess firearms, essential components thereof and ammunition from category B subject to strict conditions on security.’
I would like to point that this proposal does not take into account the effects to the current collections of great cultural and historic value, let alone the monetary value. Our collectors have obtained through the decades a large number of collections which surpass those in the hands of museums and the ammunition manufacturers of Europe. In fact many of the ammunition collections of museums and the manufacturers have gone to private collectors. The damage of this proposal cannot be measured at this moment but is unimaginably large.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I myself have also written a letter to all members of the European parlaiment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir / Madam,
This letter concerns the new European Legislation 91/477 and its consequences for legal collectors of weapons and ammunition.
Since 1975 the Netherlands has a legislation with a permit system that allows private ownership of weapons and ammunition for collectors which are interested in the technical and historical aspects of weapons and ammunition, as well as preserving cultural, historical and industrial heritage.
In 2004 the legislation was adjusted, for small calibre ammunition one needed a permit, for large calibre (inert) military ammunition one needs an exemption.
I am a collector of –inert- large calibre ammunition, as well as rifle and pistol ammunition, having both a permit and an exemption.
Collecting of ammunition in the Netherlands is subject to many restrictions;
-The collector must show he/she has a genuine technical or historical interest in ammunition, and must be a member of the ECRA (European cartridge Research Association) , either it’s Dutch subsection the NVBMB.
-The collector must follow a course at the NVBMB in ammunition technics, as well as aspects of law, and is only allowed to obtain a government issued licence if he/she passes the exams with satisfactory results. The collector also has to pass a balloting time of six months.
-The collector has to be over 18 years of age, is to have a completely clean criminal record, and has to be “in good mental state”.
-The licence or exemption can be revoked any time without warning, when any doubt appears about the reason for collecting, suspected criminal contacts, either doubt about the mental state of the collector.
This Dutch legislation and exemption system has allowed a hobby that before 1975 was illegally practiced in strict secrecy in sheds in the backs of gardens – without the possibility of any government control-, to be legally practiced after obtaining a licence or exemption, allowing the government to take full control. In the Netherlands this is done by annual –unannounced- house visits by the fire arms officers of the local police force, checking if all ammo is registered according to government regulations, and if the collector does not exceed permit or exemption conditions. All legal collectors are known by the Dutch government!
I want to point out that since 1975 many publications have been made by Dutch (and also European) collectors which are to be considered the information sources and reference for law enforcement, army, and any institution or company that needs info about weapons and / or ammunition. Collecting of ammunition by private persons can therefore be considered as the preservation of cultural, historical and industrial heritage.
In reports to European governments it is wrongly suggested that there are links between licenced collectors and criminals. This is absolutely unfounded and complete nonsense!! I collect for 33 years, and in all this time I have never seen or heard anything about contacts between legal collectors and criminals, in fact I am fully convinced that any legal collector I know will instantaneously inform the proper authorities if any criminal activity is suspected. This, because our position as legal collectors is always unstable due to these false and unfounded allegations. In this matter, the licencing system has created a sharp and clear division between legal –law abiding – collectors, and those whom have chosen the path of criminal behaviour.
Research has also shown that there is hardly any danger in collecting rifle or pistol cartridges in loaded condition, a bottle of lighter fluid in a kitchen cupboard has a much larger danger potential. Large calibre ammunition (artillery shells, mines, missiles) in a collectable condition of course are fully inert and do not contain any energetic materials, the only danger these ordnance remnants pose is being dropped on one’s foot.
According to the new proposals of the EU, small calibre ammunition with armour piercing, incendiary or expanding bullet, cartridge belts , and Magazines for –automatic-rifles will be forbidden. The consequence of this will be that unique historical collections will be broken up and destroyed, without any positive contribution to the decrease of criminality or terrorism.
So, where do criminals and terrorists obtain their weapons and ammunition? The first source :
-The Albanian opening of the depots in 1997 (Albanian: Hapja e depove) was the opening of weapons depots in the north, for protection against the violence of the south. The decision was taken by President Berisha. When southern Albanian bases were looted, it was estimated that, on average, every male from the age of ten upwards possessed at least one firearm and ample ammunition. In order to protect the civilians in north and central Albania, the government allowed civilians to arm themselves from government arms depots. During the rebellion 656,000 weapons of various types, along with 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition, 3.5 million hand grenades and one million land mines, were looted from army depots.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_civil_war_of_1997
-The Yugoslav wars in the 90’s of the last century, where more than 250.000 weapons + ammunition disappeared, as well as rocket launchers and hand grenades.
As one can see, a criminal or terrorist has no interest in trying to obtain ammunition from a licensed collector, whom only possesses items in small amounts for study purposes, while it is easily possible for a criminal or terrorist to obtain these goods anonymously on the black market in large amounts.
Except for that, terrorists and/or criminals will not abide the laws as descent people in descent societies have decided upon, so any further restrictions will only hurt licensed legal collectors.
I hereby want to petition you not to further restrict the European legislation concerning the collecting of weapons and ammunition, and not send legal collecting -by descent people- back into illegality, breaking up irreplaceable collections of historical, cultural and industrial heritage –often worth a small fortune- , but to consider an European permit and exemption system, based upon the Dutch system, under the epigraph ‘to control is better than to prohibit’
Thank you in advance
Yours sincerely,
D.J. Harms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's becomming time we make ourselves heard again, before it's too late and our hobby is gone.
These new regulations would simply eliminate the collectors of small arms ammo, magazines and belts, and that's only for a starter. In a few years one will not even be allowed to own a fired shellcase cut down to an ashtray if the EU has it's way.
SO, WRITE A LETTER OF PROTEST!!!!.
One can use the above letters as a template of what can be written, but make shure to keep it to the point, polite, and non emotional.
Below here , a Word list is added with all the adresses of members of the European parlaiment. Send the mails in batches of maximum 25 , or the e mail server will get stuck. Do not sens to all E mailadresses at once , as the server in Brussels will hink it's spam and throw your message out.
But DO write, or we're finished.
Regards, DJ Harms
Last edited:
