What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

German WW2 Mk I Clockwork Sabotage Delay

S

switch

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Further to an item correctly identified by Hazord in the BOCN "Guess what it is" thread, here are some more details and pictures on the German WW2 Mark 1 Clockwork Delay for Sabotage use.
View attachment 76305DSC_0979.jpgDSC_0980.jpgDSC_0981.jpgDSC_0983.jpgDSC_0984.jpg

These timers were used in a variety of sabotage devices including incendiaries, but examples of them seem to be extremely uncommon, despite the substantial Serial number stamped on the inside of the cover. I presume that this is due to their rather uninteresting appearance when they have their cover on. The maximum Delay was 12 Hours and the unit consists of a cheap clockwork mechanism linked to a restrained spring loaded striker Further detailed information on these can be found in Enemy Sabotage Equipment (Identification) May 1945
German Mk1 - 3.jpgGerman Mk1 - 2.jpgGerman Mk1 - 1.jpg
This publication also details a further five different types of clockwork Sabotage delays which are also extremely uncommon - If any other Members have any examples, or any additional information, it would be greatly welcomed.

Cheers

Switch
 
Switch,

Thanks for posting this. I have never seen one of these before. the closest things that I have to this in my collection are my JFEDER 504, Zt. Z.f. SpBu. 37" & a Kreigsmarine scuttling timer.


 
Hi whsammler

I found this one tucked in with a J.Feder in it's box, presumably as it had been "liberated" At that stage, the cover was corroded on, and I had no idea what it was. Thankfully, someone with me recognised what it was, and pointed out that it was probably worth a lot more than the J.Feder I had just bought. Lucky, as I would have been none the wiser today!

There are a few of these timers about that I know of, and I hope that this thread might bring a few more out into the daylight - Wait and see! I would like to collect all six one day!

Cheers

Switch

PS - Super museum by the way, some excellent items
 
Hi Alpini

This Clockwork delay is identified as German in Enemy Sabotage Equipment (Identification) May 1945. This was published as a War Office Pamphlet, but was drawn up by Lord Rothschild of M15. He was awarded a George Cross for disarming a J. Feder fused IED, so he was probably fairly knowledgeable on the subject (Thanks Bonnex)

Hope this helps

Cheers

Switch
 
Marks 1, 2 and 6 is/are the best I can do.

It was a George Medal rather than a George Cross that Rothschild was awarded for his IED clearance. Rothschild ran the Counter Espionage Branch b 1 c of MI5 and his work (and particularly the splendid work of Fish, his draughtsman) is often seen in photographs without attribution to MI5 (for security reasons). As you say the red covered books 'Enemy Sabotage Equipment' were entirely MI5 work rather than that of The War Office, under whose cover they were issued, but a point on the books, they do include British devices because many of these turned up in counter espionage operations since the Germans had captured large quantities dropped to resistance organisations in Europe by SOE.





German Clocks.jpg
 
Last edited:
I agree with Alpini, there is nothing on that item that can be related to anything known from Germany (I refrain from listing the details).
In what box the item was found can't be a point here unless the box was mae for it and had the regarding labeling (what was not the case).
Further, disarming a J-Feder or even working for years in this sphere does not give endless knowledge about any existing item, in particular not in 1945, that can be recognized with many documents of that time.
When you look at the "Enemy Sabotage Equipment - Identification" you will find doozens of British and other devices in that document. This can't be just a minor slip in this difficult field of ordnance.
Since many items there are cited with German designations I wonder if they were just taken off German documents which were on the same subject (like from "Die feindlichen Sabotagemittel" by the Reichsfhrer-SS).

And last but not least we should stick to primary sources and there (to my knowledge) no German document has ever treated the device in question.
 
Hi EOD

Thanks for your thoughts - I agree that the fact that the item was found in a boxed J.Feder is purely incidental, and irrelevant to its origin.

My identification was based on what is published in Enemy Sabotage Equipment - Identification, which does itemise items "presumed" of a German origin with the suffix (G). I was assuming as a British originated document, they would be well aware of what was not originated in Britain, and hence identify them accordingly. "Die fiendlichen Sabotagemittel" is a document not known to me, which I will have to address immediately, and I take your point about the lack of primary sources of German origin relating to this item.

However, at least two specimens of this device have been posted here this evening, and my item has a number stamped on it to five digits, so there must be a fair few more of them in existence somewhere. Somebody created them, and it would be good to identify from where they originated.

Please let me know if you have any more information relevant to any of these type of timers, as it is a subject I am fascinated by.

Thanks, Cheers

Switch
 
Just a thought as this isn't my particular field of expertise but the font used for the five digit number doesn't appear to be British & would they have put any marks on a sabotage timer for SOE use ?
 
PS - Super museum by the way, some excellent items

Switch,

Thanks for the kind words regarding my museum collection.....its a labor of love.
 
I had some of the same doubts as EOD, but I don't know anything more in particular. I wouldn't be surprised if this item was captured enemy material used by the germans.
I hope one of us will find some more documents about this fuze in the future.
 
Hi Alpini

Thanks - Please let me know if you come across anything new relating to this type of items.

Cheers

Switch
 
This has taken an interesting turn. The question of origin of the 'Mark I' timer will run and run I expect. The work of MI5's b 1 c branch and their colleagues carrying out foreign ammunition exploitation in the Armament Research and Armament Design departments is not well represented in surviving records. Not that these would be the 'source records' referred to by EOD, these must necessarily be German (or not) to meet exacting academic standards. I cannot speak for Germany of course but in the UK very few true source documents dealing with the design and development of clandestine sabotage devices exist which, assuming a similar situation in Germany or any other country, leads me to believe that nailing down the origin of this timer will prove very difficult.

Meanwhile I am inclined to lean on Rothschild's attribution.
 
Hi Bonnex

Many thanks for the additional photos showing employment. Page 9 is in Turkish - Any ideas of origin?

Cheers

Switch
 
Hi EOD

I am after a bit of assistance

I was wondering if "Die fiendlichen Sabotagemittel " was available on the web, or can you advise me where I might be able to obtain a copy of this document, as I am having no luck so far tracking it down.

Thanks

Cheers

Switch
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top