7,62cm PzGr. 40

[Nabob]

Anything is possible. All of this is just quessing I suppose.

Yes, there will be a mention in some manual. We have to find it yet.
Maybe in D g 420/154 Anfertigen der Tropenunition der 7,62 cm FK 296(r) - russ 36- und der 7,62 cm FK 296 (r) Sfl -russ 36- 1.8.1942 or the
D g 420/156 Anfertigen der 7,62 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 18.4.1942

Before that it is all speculation. I like the word educated guess :nerd:.

Bob

 

[Redmeer]

Gentlemen - hold on. I can understand your excitement about this projectile, but I think speculations about 7,62 Pzgr.40 in FK 290(r) (76,2x385R) are way too far. There are no sources proving this kind of "replacement" and all my sources clearly points on two possible guns: 7,62cm PaK 36 and 7,62cm FK 39. Both of them used PaK 40 cases.

 

[marek_wawa]

Redmeer this clearly tells us that they were used in shorter russian type cases. What am I not getting here?
This image was posted by greif on the first page of the thread.

 

[RichardB]

I have to say, previously, I would have agreed with Redmeer, but your picture looks pretty conclusive to me Marek.
Thank you for the picture and the education

Do you know what book/manual that is from?

Rich

 

[marek_wawa]

Richard, you should try to ask "greif", he posted it first.

 

[RichardB]

Wow I missed that....Apols Grief
So next question is, does anyone have one of these case for sale ideally --- but even just photo of the headstamp would be interesting

Rich

 

[fert]

Hello,
german made 7,62cm cases.
please note strange crimping grove on left case.


as you can see, doesnt' match with shells


markings

best regards

 

[RichardB]

Are you able to make out the letters below the case number 6390c

 

[fert]

hello,

markings:
6390St
7,62 JKH 290 (r)


regards

 

[Redmeer]

Redmeer this clearly tells us that they were used in shorter russian type cases. What am I not getting here?
This image was posted by greif on the first page of the thread.

View attachment 121404

Alright. Do not believe in everything what fits to your theory. Picture is wrong, even with proper designation - 7,62cm FK 296(r) used standard PaK40 shell case, not 76,2x385R case (picture looks like this one).

In theory is possible to count this as ammunition for non converted F-22 gun, but do you see any logic in this? I cant find any source which can even confirm usage of non-converted F-22 guns, so making ammunition with tungsten core instead of to converted one makes no sense.

 

[greif]

Richard, you should try to ask "greif", he posted it first.

At this moment I am redecorating my house and all my documentation is in storage. When I have it at home again I will scan and post the other images from the same handbook.

 

[marek_wawa]

The machined down driving band also makes no sense. I believe that there could be mistakes, non accurate drawings etc, but we can't exclude this projectile was used with 76,2x358R steel case. There could be some experimental ammo that we do not know of. I haven't seen any dug ups merged (both case and projekctile) of this round, I hope someone here did and he'll enlight us
The Germans used the converted F-22 guns as 7,62cm PaK 36R and they used steel 76,2x385 steel casings, why wouldn't they use them for 7,62cm PzGr40? There is no info about this but this doesn't mean they didn't. Remember this is a rare item, they are always questions without simple answers regarding such stuff.

 

[Redmeer]

The machined down driving band also makes no sense. I believe that there could be mistakes, non accurate drawings etc, but we can't exclude this projectile was used with 76,2x358R steel case. There could be some experimental ammo that we do not know of. I haven't seen any dug ups merged (both case and projekctile) of this round, I hope someone here did and he'll enlight us
The Germans used the converted F-22 guns as 7,62cm PaK 36R and they used steel 76,2x385 steel casings, why wouldn't they use them for 7,62cm PzGr40? There is no info about this but this doesn't mean they didn't. Remember this is a rare item, they are always questions without simple answers regarding such stuff.

Machined band doesnt mean anything. And this nothing experimental, especially when found in the place, where ammo was destroyed after the WW2. It's simple - projectiles were found with separated caps and mostly without tungsten cores - its a standard amateur tungsten recycling process after the war.

German did'nt used original F-22. And it's not that rare as you want to force - it's still a non experimental projectile and was found in Poland in last year at least few times (two times in large quantity).

Lets's keep on the facts - 7,62cm Pzgr.40 was designed to converted PaK 36 and FK 39. Both of them used PaK 40 cartridge. There are no correct infos about using this with 385mm case (and there is no info about non converted F-22). Even if any F-22 werent converted to long case, it will be named as 290(r) in my opinion (there are few 290(r) guns, with designation 290/x - all of them used 76,2x385R cartidge).

 

[Nabob]

Lets's keep on the facts - 7,62cm Pzgr.40 was designed to converted PaK 36 and FK 39. Both of them used PaK 40 cartridge. There are no correct infos about using this with 385mm case (and there is no info about non converted F-22). Even if any F-22 werent converted to long case, it will be named as 290(r) in my opinion (there are few 290(r) guns, with designation 290/x - all of them used 76,2x385R cartidge).

I guess You missed one of the previous posts.
Please see here the front page of the range tables HDv 119/121 from July 1942. (replaces even older manual from November 1942)
The 119/148 (FK 39) was issued in March 1943.
The 119/327 (Pak 36) was issued in September 1942

Sure we have to be carefull with optimism and daydreaming, but the same goes to the "never existed" - of which I have been proven wrong many times.

Bob


Bob

 

[Nabob]

Has someone ever seen the manual H.Dv.481/245 Vorläufiges Merkblatt für die Tropenmunition der7,62 cm Feldkanone 296 [r] -russ. 36- (7,62 cm F.K. 296 [r])* und der 7,62 cm Feldkanone 296 [r] auf Selbstfahrlafette (7,62 cm F.K. 296 [r] [Sfl.]) from 15.3.1942?

Bob

 

[Redmeer]

Dear Nabob, I just want to clarify one thing - this projectile is 7,62cm Pzgr. 40 not 7,62 Pzgr. 40 (r).

 

[Nabob]

Hi Redmeer,
in 7,62cm I know only following AP (TP for AP) projectiles:

1. 7,62cm Pzgr. 39
2. 7,62cm Pzgr. 39 rot Ausf B and C
3. 7,62cm Pzgr. 40 Ausf B
4. 7,62cm Pzgr. 39 rot (Üb)
5. 7,62cm Pzgr. 40 (Üb)

The description in the picture and on the title page says 7,62cm Panzergratpatrone 40 (r) - the designation of the whole round not only the projectile.
I assume that 7,62cm Panzergratpatrone 40 (r) used the 7,62cm Pzgr 40. Please correct me if I am wrong or missing something.

Bob

 

[Redmeer]

First of all:

Im not exactly sure about it is 7,5cm Pzgr. 40 or 7,62cm Pzgr. 40. Both projectiles are preety similar and copper driving band in my opinion is not a clear sign of 7,62cm projectile. In Geschossringbuch those shells have similar measures - 7,5cm Pzgr. 40 is only 1,3mm wider on upper band and 50g lighter. So we need exact measure of projectile diameter.

I have huge reserve to american wartime sources (and post war made in 40.), but here's the thing:



This shell is described to use in guns with (r) behind codename. Statistic data added to this shell clearly points at 385mm case. Differrence between topic projectile and this is obvious. As I said, I dont believe to this source, but 1 decal is a key - exact manufacturer codes So maybe it's a way to describe what is going on with these projectiles. This fits my data and keeps "standard" Pzgr.40 projectiles away from "short" cases, as sources claims.

 

[RichardB]

In addition to the exact manufacturing codes, the drawing doesn't show a driving band that's machined down. Isnt that the reason the projectile in the thread is being suggested to have been used in their shorter case

Someone also said there is a simple equation for the width of the driving band.... Does that equation include a variable for volume of propellant ?? (Ie approximation for case length)

Just my 2c

 

[Redmeer]

Also there can be smaller charge, but it's only speculation.