Dave not only the lower crimp but these cases have different case geometry. The whole case neck and shoulders are different.
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More German Squeezebores
- Thread starter SG500
- Start date
Dave not only the lower crimp but these cases have different case geometry. The whole case neck and shoulders are different.
Guys,
this museum has been closed since the mid 1990s. They had few people visit for research - I was there for research three times and never heard of anyone else. It was as if few people knew it existed. The curator was by himself, no other workers. He would allow research only when he was available to shut things down and spend his full time with you. The man was above reproach, he loved the collection, and as a non-munitions guy he took great pains to understand and care for it.
For a number of reasons, lack of funds being the biggest, the museum was shut down, inventoried and placed in storage. Some years later it was merged with another musuem collection, which was also shut down and put into storage. I have long suspected that some items were "lost" during this period, but "substitution" is too elaborate, the suspected pieces simply don't exist anymore. Regardless, the collection is currently in storage, the likelihood of seeing it again in the next 20 years is very, very small. Enjoy the photos.
Jeff these photos are just brilliant and I for one really appreciate you posting them all. It is so difficult to find photographs of decent squeezebore or arrowhead specimens in collections and your photographs add significantly to the information anyone with a vague interest in such things has. Please keep them comming.
As regards the museum, thank goodness they are in storage. All too often such things end up getting spirited away or worse still destroyed. 20 years will fly past soon enough and then they'll be even scarcer.
Dave.
As regards the museum, thank goodness they are in storage. All too often such things end up getting spirited away or worse still destroyed. 20 years will fly past soon enough and then they'll be even scarcer.
Dave.
The collection is amazing and I would really like to thank you for sharing such fantastic pictures as we all get a chance to learn and see very rare items.
From my own point of view I always like to keep an open mind and be willing to accept that something I thought to be true for years might not be so.
I have to agree with Alpini but this is still a world class excellent collection and one item that might be questionable does not take anything away from the other amazing projectiles.
There are a few very obvious reasons that something is wrong with the 5cm Pzgr. 40.
From my own point of view I always like to keep an open mind and be willing to accept that something I thought to be true for years might not be so.
I have to agree with Alpini but this is still a world class excellent collection and one item that might be questionable does not take anything away from the other amazing projectiles.
There are a few very obvious reasons that something is wrong with the 5cm Pzgr. 40.
- The Waffenamt mark number is not recorded in available databases.
- The 40 Kw.K has no meaning as an German ordnance abbreviation
- The dimensions look wrong.
Attachments
I think this is the last of the squeezebores, though there are still more photos to go through. This one was a bit surprising when I looked at the headstamp on the case. Oal is given as 615mm, length of projo, 177mm. In regard to the discarding sabots, studded projectiles etc, do you want them here, or in a new thread?
Jeff its a Jones and Lamson 57mm squeezebore, see also the ones on the link (posts 3,29 and 34):
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/71145-Show-your-6-PR-Rounds-(WW1-amp-WW2)/page4?highlight=jones+lamson
Nice specimen again.
Would you mind starting a separate thread for the studded and apds, hopefully this thread will fill up with some more squeezebores that are hiding out there.
Thanks.
Dave.
Jeff yours is a development round, I stand corrected on the Jones and Lamson. See below. Looks like its a super rare projectile considering how few were made.
T 6 development:
July 3 1942
A directive to the Proving Centre requesting determination of form and stability factors as well as Navy Ballistic limits and spark photographs of the 57mm T6 High Velocity Projectiles in the 57mm gun M1. The proving centre was to receive on or before July 6 1942 twenty four T 6 shot with CRS cores and twenty four T6 shot with tungsten carbide cores. The core followed sketch GA 2072 and the exterior dimensions followed sketch GA 2096. Firings were requested against 5” class B, 6” class A and 8” class B armour plates, as well as ” class A in front of 3” class B armour plates separated 10” apart.
Against 5” Class B plate at 30 degrees 3530 f/s velocity was obtained.
The shot was found to be stable in flight but that it’s shape could be improved because the pressure waves existed at the ogive and at various points along the body of the shot and could be eliminated or lessened by providing a slight curvature at the ogive and a jacket between the front bourrelet and the rotating band. As a result the T7 shot without swaging having a steel windshield, duralumin jacket and steel base evolved.
The T6 had a core weighing 1.5 pounds with a duralumin jacket as well as a rear steel jacket which swaged. The total weight of the shot was 2.98 pounds. T
A note in the same report refers to the T 7 shot as “ a contract with City Auto Stamping Company to design and supply fifty special shots T7 was made.....etc........”. It doesn’t say who made the T6. Perhaps it was the same company, anyone know?
Attached are photos of a few more squeezebores that I picked up recently.
The 4 large ones to the right are German 7.5cm, the 3 smaller ones to the left are German 5cm, all fired. Yes I realise the paint job is.......unusual.
The tiny one in nice condition is a Swiss HS 606.
Anyone else got any more squeezebores hiding out there?
All INERT.
Dave.
The 4 large ones to the right are German 7.5cm, the 3 smaller ones to the left are German 5cm, all fired. Yes I realise the paint job is.......unusual.
The tiny one in nice condition is a Swiss HS 606.
Anyone else got any more squeezebores hiding out there?
All INERT.
Dave.
Jeff I've just revisited what you posted here. Reference the 6cm squeezebore. What sort of case would it have used? I'm not familiar with any WW2 6cm German cases that would be suitable.
Dave.
Just a couple more recent additions.
The Germans worked on a 31mm squeezebore weapon with a 31 x 268 case developed from the Mk 101 aircraft round.
A range of projectiles were made all with an initial calibre of 31mm squeezing down to 18mm, 20mm and 22mm. Various core sizes were tried and also solid practice versions and even a chromium tipped version.
The following shows the 1381 (31mm squeezed to 18mm) tungsten cored projectile on the left and the 1322 (31mm squeezed to 22mm) tungsten cored projectile on the right. Note that the designation 1381 is correct for the 31/18 and 1322 for the 31/22, I understand that this was a deliberate move by the Germans to confuse anyone who may get hold of drawings (perhaps someone can confirm if this is a correct assumption).
The following shows various views of the 1381 complete with the design drawing.
The following shows various views of the 1322 complete with the design drawing.
If anyone happens to have a spare case then please let me know :tinysmile_eyebrow_t
Dave.
The Germans worked on a 31mm squeezebore weapon with a 31 x 268 case developed from the Mk 101 aircraft round.
A range of projectiles were made all with an initial calibre of 31mm squeezing down to 18mm, 20mm and 22mm. Various core sizes were tried and also solid practice versions and even a chromium tipped version.
The following shows the 1381 (31mm squeezed to 18mm) tungsten cored projectile on the left and the 1322 (31mm squeezed to 22mm) tungsten cored projectile on the right. Note that the designation 1381 is correct for the 31/18 and 1322 for the 31/22, I understand that this was a deliberate move by the Germans to confuse anyone who may get hold of drawings (perhaps someone can confirm if this is a correct assumption).
The following shows various views of the 1381 complete with the design drawing.
The following shows various views of the 1322 complete with the design drawing.
If anyone happens to have a spare case then please let me know :tinysmile_eyebrow_t
Dave.
I've picked up a few more of the fired 7.5cm squeezebores since post 72 above.
Does anyone have any of the design drawings for these projectiles that they can post please? Every time I find a new 7.5cm squeezebore its different :tinysmile_grin_t: . They must have experimented with a lot of types.
It wasn't me who painted them these colours. I think the HE one on the left is the correct colour but not the rest.
Dave.
All INERT.
Does anyone have any of the design drawings for these projectiles that they can post please? Every time I find a new 7.5cm squeezebore its different :tinysmile_grin_t: . They must have experimented with a lot of types.
It wasn't me who painted them these colours. I think the HE one on the left is the correct colour but not the rest.
Dave.
All INERT.
thehairbarebunch
Well-Known Member
Some fabulous rounds on display and some lucky people to have found them. To elaborate on a few points already made. Technically speaking Squeeze bore and Taper bore are slightly different. In a Taper bore the gun barrel gradually reduces from the chamber to the muzzle, as in the s.Pz.B41. In a Squeeze bore the diameter of the barrel suddenly reduces to below the full calibre of the parallel barrel, as in the Littlejohn adaptor on the 2pdr.
Both use APCNR (armour piercing composite NON rigid) which has a Tungsten core in an alloy body designed to compress on it way down the tapering barrel or adaptor. The M/V is increased due to the base area of the projectile decreasing while the gas pressure remains the same.
In the arrowhead or APCR (armour piercing composite rigid) round is designed to be fired down a full calibre parallel barrel and gains higher M/V due to the simple expedient of being lighter than a full bore AP round allowing it to accelerate faster up the barrel. The down side is that unlike the above they retain the same cross section as the normal round and so having left the muzzle and being lighter bleed off energy more quickly.
Both use APCNR (armour piercing composite NON rigid) which has a Tungsten core in an alloy body designed to compress on it way down the tapering barrel or adaptor. The M/V is increased due to the base area of the projectile decreasing while the gas pressure remains the same.
In the arrowhead or APCR (armour piercing composite rigid) round is designed to be fired down a full calibre parallel barrel and gains higher M/V due to the simple expedient of being lighter than a full bore AP round allowing it to accelerate faster up the barrel. The down side is that unlike the above they retain the same cross section as the normal round and so having left the muzzle and being lighter bleed off energy more quickly.
