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ww1 German gas shell

For some reason the scale was not in the photo, it was an early poor photo that I intend to reshoot while I am home anyway. It is the same size as the bottle in the projectile. I think I have another bottle photo someplace, but haven't found it in my portable hard drives yet, it may be at home.

The projos were photographed at the German dismantling facility for old chemical weapons, the collection has since been moved to a nearby EOD collection.
 
SG500, here is a better photo from some of my bottles at home - with scale.
 

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More bottles

Here's a couple from my collection.

The one on the right is from the 7.7cm projo and measures the standard 19cm long x 4cm diameter.

The one on the left is a bit different it measures 20cm in length x 6.5cm diameter.

Pete
 

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Hey Pete, where you been hiding? Nice bottle, looks like the one for the 10.5, but maybe a bit short?
 
Bottle

Got the family over at the mo, yep from the 10.5, not that commen so i'm led to believe?
 
Don't believe everything you hear....

Here is a shot of the bottle in its natural habitat for those wondering what we are yakking about.

If you are in Monday Pete come up to my office and I'll show you some new shots from last weeks mission - couple new pieces.
 

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Hi i hope you don't mind me butting in but Could you tell me if the bottles are hard to find and if they are expensive to buy as i have been looking for one.
Best regards
Andy
 
The 7.7cm cost me 20 euros, the 10.5cm had to be traded as the owner wouldn't sell it!
 
interesting continuation thread about the chemical glass bottles,I may buy one some day to complete my yellow cross gas shell.

Thanks for posting great images all.

Just out of interest..how were these sealed?

and would any one have an (old or new) image of a bottle intact with contents!!???

great posts

18pounder
 
Fuzes for 7,7cm Gas shells

Does anyone knows which typ of fuzes beeing used for the german 7,7cm German Gas shells !!

I think there are several typ of beeing used for Gas shells !!

like KZ 16

wbr David s
 
Does anyone knows which typ of fuzes beeing used for the german 7,7cm German Gas shells !!

I think there are several typ of beeing used for Gas shells !!

like KZ 16

wbr David s

Hi David
i believe they were the EKZ 17 AND EKZ16

With the fuze part sticking out the top to help the shell explode on the surface.
18pounder
 
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20 euros is about right for the bottles, you find them most oftern in the Ypres region of Belgium, also in the eastern protions of France (Arras, etc).

The bottles contained the Clark mixture, and so would be found only in the blue Cross shells, not yellow or green cross. The agent was a powder fill, no seal was generally necessary. The bottle was placed upside down and the explosive was cast (poured in hot and molten) around it.

Each of the different gas projectiles had typical fuzes that were found with them, yellow cross not necessarily the same as blue cross, etc. Another thing that is interesting is that you will here rules for WWI chemical munitions - this is never chemical filled, on this or this fuze - and often times this is regional. While some pieces may remain consistent we sometimes see differences between what was used in Belgium vs what was used in France, vs what is found in Germany or the UK.

The Belgians did the most work on this, working on a handbook for a number of years. They even went to the UK to look at original archival records (with the assistance of one of our members). I haven't seen a recent copy of their handbook, but I believe that they continue to update it and I'm pretty sure it lists fuze combinations that can serve as indicators.
 
20 euros is about right for the bottles, you find them most oftern in the Ypres region of Belgium, also in the eastern protions of France (Arras, etc).

The bottles contained the Clark mixture, and so would be found only in the blue Cross shells, not yellow or green cross. The agent was a powder fill, no seal was generally necessary. The bottle was placed upside down and the explosive was cast (poured in hot and molten) around it.

Each of the different gas projectiles had typical fuzes that were found with them, yellow cross not necessarily the same as blue cross, etc. Another thing that is interesting is that you will here rules for WWI chemical munitions - this is never chemical filled, on this or this fuze - and often times this is regional. While some pieces may remain consistent we sometimes see differences between what was used in Belgium vs what was used in France, vs what is found in Germany or the UK.

The Belgians did the most work on this, working on a handbook for a number of years. They even went to the UK to look at original archival records (with the assistance of one of our members). I haven't seen a recent copy of their handbook, but I believe that they continue to update it and I'm pretty sure it lists fuze combinations that can serve as indicators.

you said the 'agent' was a powder fill?? how would this react fast enough with oxygen to release gas, also if the bottle is not sealed ,wouldnt it be leaking all over the place as factory workers were trying to fill them with the explosive?
i thought it was a liquid sealed with a tar or wax stopper?

I'm sure the Germans used class bottles in other shells and not just blue cross.

Any EOD guys out there to help us out?

18pounder
 
OK, let's try this again. If I didn't know better I'd guess this was Peteblight being funny -

The agent is a solid - diphenylchloroarsine , diphenylcyanoarise, adamsite, etc. Clark I and Clark II to the Germans, all part of the same family of arsenical sternatory agents, intended to cause sneezing and/or vomiting. The agent is released as a solid particulant - typically in smoke. In the blue cross shells it was vaporised by the heat of the explosion, then distributed with the smoke of the explosion. The glass bottle was there to keep the temperature down, so that the agent wasn't totally destroyed - otherwise the material could be directly mixed into the explosive, the same as the Soviets did.

The Germans, US, Japanese etc continued to load this type of agent in WWII. If you check you will find German blauring projectiles and bombs, each which use a burning effect to disseminate the agent. The US loaded it into burning candles, similar to smoke candles. The Japanese were the only ones to use a solvent to dissolve the material and load it as a liquid in annular type projectiles. They also used it in its solid form with burning candles as well.

Of all of the German projectiles I have examined, WWI and WWII, the Germans used glass bottles only in the WWI blue cross projectiles, in sizes to 10.5cm. They had larger blue cross rounds, but glass was a problem in the larger sizes so they went to ceramic materials.

In the early years of the war Germany was playing with experimental agents which were highly corrosive. For these they initially used lead inserts to protect the body of the shell. France did a similar thing to prevent corrosion, first with lead containers into shrapnel bodies, then by blowing glass directly into the shell (HE bodies) to protect it. As Germany (and others) standardised their fills this was dropped as unnecessary, and only the blue cross shells remained, the only agent loaded into bottles.

Any EOD guys want to back me up? (Feel free to challenge as well.)
 
OK, let's try this again. If I didn't know better I'd guess this was Peteblight being funny -

The agent is a solid - diphenylchloroarsine , diphenylcyanoarise, adamsite, etc. Clark I and Clark II to the Germans, all part of the same family of arsenical sternatory agents, intended to cause sneezing and/or vomiting. The agent is released as a solid particulant - typically in smoke. In the blue cross shells it was vaporised by the heat of the explosion, then distributed with the smoke of the explosion. The glass bottle was there to keep the temperature down, so that the agent wasn't totally destroyed - otherwise the material could be directly mixed into the explosive, the same as the Soviets did.

The Germans, US, Japanese etc continued to load this type of agent in WWII. If you check you will find German blauring projectiles and bombs, each which use a burning effect to disseminate the agent. The US loaded it into burning candles, similar to smoke candles. The Japanese were the only ones to use a solvent to dissolve the material and load it as a liquid in annular type projectiles. They also used it in its solid form with burning candles as well.

Of all of the German projectiles I have examined, WWI and WWII, the Germans used glass bottles only in the WWI blue cross projectiles, in sizes to 10.5cm. They had larger blue cross rounds, but glass was a problem in the larger sizes so they went to ceramic materials.

In the early years of the war Germany was playing with experimental agents which were highly corrosive. For these they initially used lead inserts to protect the body of the shell. France did a similar thing to prevent corrosion, first with lead containers into shrapnel bodies, then by blowing glass directly into the shell (HE bodies) to protect it. As Germany (and others) standardised their fills this was dropped as unnecessary, and only the blue cross shells remained, the only agent loaded into bottles.

Any EOD guys want to back me up? (Feel free to challenge as well.)

thanks

err were these candles like birthday candles? and did you have to light them before putting them inside??
wouldnt the candles go out when they were flying through the air??
xx
18pounder
 
You're not a personal friend of Peteblight's, are you?

"Candle" is a generic term typically used for ejected burning pots - i.e. smoke candles, etc. Ignition is accomplished by the flash of an expulsion charge, once ignited they tend to burn quite well, during the fall and after impact. In the first photo I have shown a WWII German s.FH Gr. 40 15cm projectile, blauring - it is cutaway to show the candle, which is ejected from the base of the projectile. The plate at the top of the candle was intended to swing outward to achieve drag and separation from the empty projo body.

The second photo is a candle from a WWII German 10.5cm blauring projectile.

Third photo is a Japanese "Large Red Toxic Candle" (designation unknown). Red is the term they used for DA/DC loaded munitions.

Fourth photo is the US M1 Irritant Gas Candle (DM-Adamsite).

Fifth photo is a WWII German 10.5cm FH Gr., referred to in US docs as a "false-floor" projectile, it used an explosive-loaded head to vaporise the solid agent contained in the lower portion of the projectile, spreading it as dust and in the smoke of the explosion.

All but the last are burning type munitions.
 

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Don't bring me into this ;-) Honest Pete they call me!!

So just to clarify things, did the Italians have air dropped solid phosgene smoke candles during WW2?

P :wink:
 
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