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18pounder
Guest
interesting article!
thanks mate
oh and peteblite,we better show some mercy!! poor chaps trying to help!
:tinysmile_shy_t::tinysmile_shy_t:
only messing us subs xx
While most munitions result in a non-functioning rate of at least 10%, and some higher, in the case of WWI gas shells, the predominant finds since the war are from "logistics losses"--stocks buried in mud, lost or hidden as the battle lines changed, destroyed by incoming fire, etc. That explains the large number of unfired rounds being recovered on, in and under the fields in Belgium, or at least that is what I was told during my tour there a few years back.
Jack,
thanks for the input. That being said, I am seriously beginning to think you guys are just trying to wind me up.
Solid. Sooooolid. SOLID. El solido. Did I say solid?
While the text from the document was dramatic (love the part about "something that no reasonable human being dared to do") I believe it lacks a certain something. Technical accuracy perhaps?
I would offer in its place to return again to Mr. Prentiss, "Chemicals in War" for perhaps a slightly more technical discussion. There are other references, but none say it quite so well (in English).
I find it interesting that while the author of your source used the same exact diagram as Mr. Prentiss in 1937, he failed to locate the same technical information.
Taber, while it is clear that unfired make up a significant percentage of the recoveries, based upon what we see recovered both in the Ypres region and France, I would hesitate to say that they accounted for 50% of the finds, much less a majority. I would suggest that a typical dud rate of 10% (admittedly likely to be higher due to the chewed up soil) and the staggering quantities utilised - (read below, 10 million blue cross in the last 16 months alone) would add significantly to the quantities of fired duds. 10% of 10 is one million, that's a lot of blue cross duds, if their dud rate was that good.
One of our people at work (and a silent observer on this site) was a member of the Belgian EOD team doing recoveries at their primary site since 1978 till he joined us 5 years ago. I'll check his input to make sure I'm not too far astray and get back to you.
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18pounder
Guest
interesting us-subs
i do sometimes take the mickey,but i do find your posts informative...and yes i was winding you up!
The 35% on ww1 blinds (not the roller types!) is a percentage we have all heard about and its a number that was said to be from the rounds that were fired but didnt detonate.
You know as well as i do there are millions of munitions laying around the french and belgian countryside,I'd like to know the prodution numbers and maybe the numbers of shell supplied to the front and not returned.
Maybe we'll never know.
My Father tried to get some information regarding his Uncle who was killed at Polygon wood in the 1st ww but was told a large amount of data was destroyed during an air raid in London during ww2.
I would be interested in the British Army records of the time and then we might have a more accurate picture,unless they have suffered from propagander-
no one wants to admit their equiptment wasnt working very well.
Very interesting thread though
18pounder
p.s The british fired 170 MILLION shells during ww1..
i do sometimes take the mickey,but i do find your posts informative...and yes i was winding you up!
The 35% on ww1 blinds (not the roller types!) is a percentage we have all heard about and its a number that was said to be from the rounds that were fired but didnt detonate.
You know as well as i do there are millions of munitions laying around the french and belgian countryside,I'd like to know the prodution numbers and maybe the numbers of shell supplied to the front and not returned.
Maybe we'll never know.
My Father tried to get some information regarding his Uncle who was killed at Polygon wood in the 1st ww but was told a large amount of data was destroyed during an air raid in London during ww2.
I would be interested in the British Army records of the time and then we might have a more accurate picture,unless they have suffered from propagander-
no one wants to admit their equiptment wasnt working very well.
Very interesting thread though
18pounder
p.s The british fired 170 MILLION shells during ww1..
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Another bottle
Following on from the clarke bottles, and now that US Subs has calmed down a bit i thought i'd post a pic of another German bottle.
This one wasn't inside a projectile though, it was used for training and contained Bromoacetone. The Brits called it BA and the Germans White Cross or Weisskreuz (due to being a lachrymatory agent).
Does anyone have one of these with the paper label still on it?
Following on from the clarke bottles, and now that US Subs has calmed down a bit i thought i'd post a pic of another German bottle.
This one wasn't inside a projectile though, it was used for training and contained Bromoacetone. The Brits called it BA and the Germans White Cross or Weisskreuz (due to being a lachrymatory agent).
Does anyone have one of these with the paper label still on it?
Der_Feldgraue
Well-Known Member
I always thought that this is a "Steinhger" Schnaps bottle.
Hello Doug,
Lovely restoration job. I notice you are using 'chemical metal' applying it with a brush. I use the Plastic Padding version which is a two part type and comes in a tube. It's certainly great stuff, useful for all sorts of repairs, but as it hardens in five to ten minutes it cant be used for covering large areas in one application, that would use a great number of paintbrushes. Are you using a different product or is there a thinner of some description, or even a minimum amount of hardener used?
I'd be grateful for any tips?
Best regards,
Guy.
Lovely restoration job. I notice you are using 'chemical metal' applying it with a brush. I use the Plastic Padding version which is a two part type and comes in a tube. It's certainly great stuff, useful for all sorts of repairs, but as it hardens in five to ten minutes it cant be used for covering large areas in one application, that would use a great number of paintbrushes. Are you using a different product or is there a thinner of some description, or even a minimum amount of hardener used?
I'd be grateful for any tips?
Best regards,
Guy.
1
18pounder
Guest
Hi guy
thanks for the comments
i was applying paint with my brush!! not chemical metal.
I f you use less hardner you can work the mixture longer thats all,use more hardner and it sets much quicker giving less time.
I tent to apply lots of metal filler and sand it back by turning the object in my hand thats holding sand paper.
All i'd say to you mate is gather as much info and images as you can and try to finish up with something YOUR happy with.
There are some that swear by a certain technique,but i dont always agree with that,its about choice.
Restoring relics is alot down to preference and the following should be concidered.
Oil or acrlics? or both?
they both have their advantages/disadvantages.
Oil paints are tougher,but are messy,smelly and can be hard to mix.
Acrylics can easily be washed away if your not happy,but can be 'plasticy' to the touch.
I usually use an enamell matt paint as a base and use acrylics to finish details like lettering/markings and i normally use model paints like humbol enamells or Revells Acrylics because they are based on military colours.
I must say that some acrylics are very tough indeed.
Also,do you want out of the factory finish, or aged to represent the years gone by..or just used?
Pick something to practice on,like a plant pot and try out diffrent paint schemes and colours untill you know what you want to do.
white red and yellow paint
oil based white red and yellow tend to be a little weak on pigment density and need a few coats,but acrylic paints tent to be more pigment rich.
Study lots of images,even make a sketch to the exact measurements to help you place markings or coloured bands,but above all dont worry too much and enjoy it!
Doug
p.s hope i havent gone on too much
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dano1917
RIP
Schnapps
Sorry Gents, but I agree with Der Feldgraue on the Schnapps bottle theory, or at least they are sold as such by Great War Militaria. a classic WW1 German ceramic bottle that contained Schnapps. They came in 2 sizes small and large, unless they were used for two purposes. Here is a pic from Great War Militaria as advertised as a Schnapps bottle? There is also a variant Schnapps bottle with an ear type handle. Being also a bottle collector, I just love bottles that were found in the WW1 trenches..........................Dano..........Dano
Sorry Gents, but I agree with Der Feldgraue on the Schnapps bottle theory, or at least they are sold as such by Great War Militaria. a classic WW1 German ceramic bottle that contained Schnapps. They came in 2 sizes small and large, unless they were used for two purposes. Here is a pic from Great War Militaria as advertised as a Schnapps bottle? There is also a variant Schnapps bottle with an ear type handle. Being also a bottle collector, I just love bottles that were found in the WW1 trenches..........................Dano..........Dano
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18-
the general rule of thumb among EOD has always been 10%, I'm not familiar with the 35%. I can easily see where the conditions may have pushed the failure rate higher though.
A lot of the data you mention is available, but you have to work to find it. One of the best details of the Prentiss book is the attention to factual detail. He is very careful to list his references, the bibliography is in small, fine print and lists 27 pages of sources used. The UK and others did numerous visits after the war to document enemy production and detail what was produced and how. One of these reports was forwarded to me recently, on visits to German factories used to produce war gases.
Prentiss lists the overall quantities identified by the warring parties as fired artillery (CW), I cannot look it up at the moment - heading out the door. He breaks some down by calibers and types, but not to many. Also he does not have as much data on the Eastern Front, for obvious reasons.
Hope this was helpful, JO
Doctor - Thanks for the pic of the bottle with the label still on it, do you have a translation of the text?
Dano - A collegue at work is waiting for the analysis results of the contents of one of these bottles, but he assures me that it contains BA.
Here in the Netherlands we have these bottles containing Jenever - See picture.
As soon as i find them i'll add some more pictures of various CW containing bottles.
Pete
Dano - A collegue at work is waiting for the analysis results of the contents of one of these bottles, but he assures me that it contains BA.
Here in the Netherlands we have these bottles containing Jenever - See picture.
As soon as i find them i'll add some more pictures of various CW containing bottles.
Pete
1
18pounder
Guest
hey thats more like it Hazord,thanks for the info,the Germans certainly like gas!
18pounder
A very interesting thread about the use of gas by the Germans in WW1 what sort did we have was it just 18pdrs that were gas filled.
Andy
Andy