20mm projectile ID

[Burney Davis]

Can anyone ID this projectile please. No markings and measures 20mm x 54mm. TIA

 

[MINENAZ16]

Hello,
As far as I know this short russian 20mm is 54mm long.
Not exactly the same (different tracer element) but no other idea.

 

[AKON_]

HI MINENAZ16
I continued your correct idea a bit...

Боеприпасы авиационных пушек "ШВАК", "ТНШ", "Б-20" - Альтернативная История

Боеприпасы авиационных пушек "ШВАК", "ТНШ", "Б-20" - Альтернативная История

alternathistory.ru

This is one of the development versions of the 20mm T cartridge.

​

Hi Burney Davis According to the data, the bullet should have 8 right- grooves. Is this true on your specimen?
Akon

 

[AKON_]

-In the archive fund: Air Force Command (Fund 29), inventory no. 40 . I found a record of 5 sheets for the 20mm T cartridge. Or rather, about its tests at the firing range. Dated to 1939.

-In the archive fund: Air Force Command (Fund 29), inventory no. 29 . I found a record of 374 sheets for the ...20mm cartridge. Or rather, about its tests at the firing range. Dated to 1937.

etc ...
I currently have records my datawarehouse for fund 29 which contains currently 933052 sheets of paper.
Or :
------------------------
In the archive fund: 20 : GAU , , inventory no. 24 . Development of 20 mm Svak ammunition (include T) I found a record of 65 sheets..Dated to 1936-37.



I currently have records my datawarehouse for fund 29 which contains currently 2 010 730 sheets of paper.

The Russian State Military Historical Archive: A Guide

The Russian State Military Historical Archive (RGVIA; Российский государственный военно-исторический архив) is one of the largest archives in Russia. Its

geohistory.today

 

[Burney Davis]

Hi Burney Davis According to the data, the bullet should have 8 right- grooves. Is this true on your specimen?
Akon

It has 9 grooves/lands and is right hand twist so probably not from that weapon.

 

[AKON_]

It has 9 grooves/lands and is right hand twist so probably not from that weapon.

Hi BD
This brings me to the next point that I don't know anything. The only thing that could change this is to read all the correspondence on the 20mm Svak project, whether it was always 8 grooves or was there another variant.... The truth is that there were plenty of 20mm weapons (Berezin ... ), including prototypes. I'll see if I can find 9 grooves in the Russian material...
Akon

 

[Burney Davis]

Hi BD
This brings me to the next point that I don't know anything. The only thing that could change this is to read all the correspondence on the 20mm Svak project, whether it was always 8 grooves or was there another variant.... The truth is that there were plenty of 20mm weapons (Berezin ... ), including prototypes. I'll see if I can find 9 grooves in the Russian material...
Akon

Possibly a stupid question bearing in mind I know little about 20mm cannon shells, but why do you think Russian?

 

[AKON_]

Hi BD
another question about the material: your bullet is between 85g - 86g can you confirm that?
Before I answer.
Thanks .
Akon

 

[Burney Davis]

Hi BD
another question about the material: your bullet is between 85g - 86g can you confirm that?
Before I answer.
Thanks .
Akon

It's 106 g .....

 

[AKON_]

For now, there are two parameters that exclude its use in 2cm Svak. By the way, Svak was also produced outside of Russia and who knows in what modifications? I was interested in the detail of the groove on the bullet for crimping the cartridge.... I found one on a Czechoslovak rifle..here is an example:
For example, here is a Czech bullet marked JCv Sv-VH - cartridge 20x138 .
Used in insert barrels main tanks .There were certainly more versions . Here are two ... which only have a hole and a Pzgr shape.

Unfortunately, it is not 54mm long, only about 50mm.



Akon

 

[Burney Davis]

For now, there are two parameters that exclude its use in 2cm Svak. By the way, Svak was also produced outside of Russia and who knows in what modifications? I was interested in the detail of the groove on the bullet for crimping the cartridge.... I found one on a Czechoslovak rifle..here is an example:
For example, here is a Czech bullet marked JCv Sv-VH - cartridge 20x138 .
Used in insert barrels main tanks .There were certainly more versions . Here are two ... which only have a hole and a Pzgr shape.

Unfortunately, it is not 54mm long, only about 50mm.

View attachment 210602

Akon

Thanks for your effort. I've remeasured and it is definitely 54mm long, 106g and 9 lands/grooves.

 

[AKON_]

Thanks for your effort. I've remeasured and it is definitely 54mm long, 106g and 9 lands/grooves.

All you have to do is search

 

[Krt7.92]

I would also like to know the ID of this projectile. I've got an unfired one. Lenght and weight (107g) are the same. Tracer-element is empty. Not sure if the black paint is original.

 

[AKON_]

I would also like to know the ID of this projectile. I've got an unfired one. Lenght and weight (107g) are the same. Tracer-element is empty. Not sure if the black paint is original.

Hi Krt7.92
Could you measure the radius of the front ogival?
And the second question is: is the hole for the stopcock finished as after drilling or is there a different shape?
Thank you.
Akon

 

[AKON_]

Thanks for your effort. I've remeasured and it is definitely 54mm long, 106g and 9 lands/grooves.

9 lands/ grooves for example, it has a German 20mm MG-FF, i.e. it also shows the groove for crimping the cartridge on Oerlikon...

 

[Hoeksel]

They remind me of Swedish 20 mm projectiles (SKF made on 20 mm Hispano shell case), I checked an ordnance manual and found this.

 

[Rrickoshae]

And just to add another option, there were a load of them around about 25years ago. They were said to be Hispano used as plate testing shot.

 

[AKON_]

As for HS-404, it meets the 9-groove parameter, so it advances to the semifinals (it's possible).
That front ogival is quite Hispano

Akon

 

[Krt7.92]

I can' give the front ogival, but I attached a better picture. The hole for the tracer (I suppose) is, in my opinion, drilled.

 

[AKON_]

The weight of 107g in 20mm caliber is too light to be significantly penetrating. I estimate that the bullet will not be hardened or otherwise thermally processed ... i.e. a training version of the (Pz). version.Since we have a sample of the bullet where there is a green stripe above the rim .... I'm thinking a little out loud about the tracer ... interesting is that the tracer is mounted directly into the body without another insert / case and there was probably some kind of flap to cover it from moisture - judging by the circle on the body of the unfired bullet. The bullet has no attachment typical for securing a celluloid flap.What about the search for Butch further ... words from Pulp Fiction
I would focus on the distance from the bottom of 10.3mm and look for the same distance with the same pressing of the cartridge in 20mm caliber. Such a short burning tracer indicates a PT rifle or an Air Cannon or an insert barrel.I'm doing a little research on the 20mm Polsten, which Poland developed on its own, i.e. the Polish development before the war, inspired by other cartridges. But so far, no match for the 20mm PT rifle Solothurn - nothing so far...
Akon